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Pope’s immunity to prosecution may be challenged in Britain

By Associated Press
Sunday, April 4, 2010 17:29 EST
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Protests are growing against Pope Benedict XVI’s planned trip to Britain, where some lawyers question whether the Vatican’s implicit statehood status should shield the pope from prosecution over sex crimes by pedophile priests.

More than 10,000 people have signed a petition on Downing Street’s web site against the pope’s 4-day visit to England and Scotland in September, which will cost U.K. taxpayers an estimated 15 million pounds ($22.5 million). The campaign has gained momentum as more Catholic sex abuse scandals have swept across Europe.

Although Benedict has not been accused of any crime, senior British lawyers are now examining whether the pope should have immunity as a head of state and whether he could be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction for an alleged systematic cover-up of sexual abuses by priests.

Universal jurisdiction — a concept in international law — allows judges to issue warrants for nearly any visitor accused of grievous crimes, no matter where they live. British judges have been more open to the concept than those in other countries.

Lawyers are divided over the immunity issue. Some argue that the Vatican isn’t a true state, while others note the Vatican has national relations with about 170 countries, including Britain. The Vatican is also the only non-member to have permanent observer status at the U.N.

Then again, no other top religious leaders enjoy the same U.N. privileges or immunity, so why should the pope?

David Crane, former chief prosecutor at the Sierra Leone war crimes tribunal, said it would be difficult to implicate the pope in anything criminal.

“It’s a fascinating kind of academic, theoretical discussion,” said Crane, who prosecuted Sierra Leone’s Charles Taylor when he was still a sitting head of state. “At this point, there’s no liability at all.”

But Geoffrey Robertson, who as a U.N. appeals judge delivered key decisions on the illegality of conscripting child soldiers and the invalidity of amnesties for war crimes, believes it could be time to challenge the immunity of the pope — and Britain could be the place. He wrote a legal opinion on the topic that was published Friday in the U.S. news site The Daily Beast and Saturday in the British newspaper the Guardian.

“Unlike in the United States, where the judges commonly uphold what the executive says, the British courts don’t accept these things at face value,” Robertson told The Associated Press on Saturday. “The Vatican is not a state — it was a construct of Italian dictator Benito Mussolini.”

But Jeffrey Lena, the California attorney who argued — and won — head of state immunity for Benedict in U.S. sex abuse cases, said the pope could not successfully be prosecuted for crimes under international law.

“Those who would claim that ‘universal jurisdiction’ could be asserted over the pope appear to completely misunderstand the sorts of violations, such as genocide, which are required to assert such jurisdiction,” he said in a statement to the AP.

Still, Israeli officials, including former Prime Minister Ehud Barak, have recently been targeted by groups in Britain under universal jurisdiction. The law principle is rooted in the belief that certain crimes — such as genocide, war crimes, torture and crimes against humanity — are so serious that they are an offense against humanity and must be addressed.

It’s a tactic that the British government would likely abhor, but British judges have often gone against government wishes in lawsuits.

Recent examples include British judges who issued an arrest warrant against Israel’s former foreign minister for alleged war crimes, and a British court ruling this year that forced the government to release its intelligence exchanges with U.S. officials about the torture claims of a former Guantanamo detainee.

Prosecution in the deepening cleric sex abuse scandal, however, ultimately rests on the question of immunity. If British judges do challenge the pope’s immunity, there are a handful of possible legal scenarios — all of them speculative.

The pope could be served for a writ for civil damages, a complaint could be lodged with the International Criminal Court, or abuse victims could try to have Benedict arrested for crimes against humanity — perhaps the least likely scenario.

Lawyers question whether an alleged systematic cover-up could be considered a crime against humanity — a charge usually reserved for the International Criminal Court — and whether it could be pursued under universal jurisdiction.

Attorney Jennifer Robinson in London, who has been researching the possibilities, says rape and sexual slavery can be considered crimes against humanity.

Others, like Hurst Hannum with the Fletcher School of Law & Diplomacy at Tufts University near Boston, are skeptical.

“No one would question that the Church’s response to widespread abuses has been atrocious, but it’s very difficult for me to see how that would fit ‘crimes against humanity,’” said Hannum.

Robertson is more in favor of challenging the immunity question.

“Head of state immunity provides no protection in the International Criminal Court,” said Robertson, who represented The Associated Press and other media organizations who sought to make U.S.-U.K. intelligence exchanges public in the case of former Guantanamo detainee Binyam Mohamed.

“If acts of sexual abuse by priests are not isolated or sporadic events but part of a wide practice both known to and unpunished by their de facto-authority — i.e. the Catholic Church … then the commander can be held criminally liable,” Robertson said.

Even though the Vatican — like the United States — did not sign the accord that established the international court, a crime would only have to occur in a country which did sign, like Britain. Still, lawyers would have to prove that the crimes or an alleged cover-up occurred or continued after the court was set up in July 2002.

In a 2005 test case in Texas that involved alleged victims of sex abuse by priests, the Vatican obtained the intervention of President George W. Bush, who agreed the pope should have immunity against such prosecutions because he was an acting head of a foreign state.

It was around 1929 when Mussolini decided that the Vatican — a tiny enclave about 0.17 of a square mile with some 900 people — was a sovereign state.

“The notion that statehood can be created by another country’s unilateral declaration is risible,” Robertson said.

Others say the last 80 years of history have turned the Vatican into a state, and it would be almost impossible to strip the pope of his immunity now.

“My guess is the weight of opinion would allow the pope to enjoy immunity,” said Hannum. “It’s not automatically clear that the Holy See is a state, although it’s treated as one for almost every purpose.”

Last year, a Palestinian bid to have Barak — the Israeli defense chief who also served as prime minister until 2001 — arrested for alleged war crimes during a visit to Britain failed when the courts determined that he should be given immunity from arrest.

But months later, pro-Palestinian activists persuaded a London judge to issue an arrest warrant for Israeli politician Tzipi Livni, who was foreign minister during the 2008-2009 war in Gaza. The warrant was eventually withdrawn after Livni canceled her trip.

Spain and Britain jointly pioneered the universal jurisdiction concept when, in 1998, Britain executed a Spanish arrest warrant for former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet on torture claims. Pinochet was kept under house arrest in London until he was ruled physically and mentally unfit to stand trial and released in 2000.

When he was arrested, however, Pinochet was no longer head of state.

In 2001, activists brought Israel’s then-Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to trial in Belgium in connection with a 1982 massacre at a Beirut refugee camp. Sharon canceled a planned trip to Belgium and was tried in absentia in a Belgian court. He was not convicted but the case provoked diplomatic protests and prompted Belgium in 2003 to tighten the law that had permitted the trial.

Prime Minister Gordon Brown has vowed to block private groups from taking legal action against visiting foreign dignitaries but any new law is unlikely before Britain’s expected May 6 election.

The pope plans to visit Malta, Portugal and Cyprus before traveling to Britain on Sept. 16. A trip to Spain is planned for later in the fall.

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  • WhodaThunkit

    Hurst Hannum needs to put that glass pipe down!
    The idjit thinks only the response is atrocious.

    ITS THE CHILD ABUSE, STUPID!!!

  • bobshin

    When is someone going to JAIL for this???? Enough of this legalese! People get put in jail for life for lesser crimes.

  • GWMustGo

    I blame Reagan.

    Seriously… It is Reagan and his religious “right” followers that granted the Vatican City official diplomatic rights with the U.S.

    (http://www.ask.com/wiki/Holy_See_%E2%80%93_Unit…)

    Granted, one cannot deflect blame from the 4 presidents that have followed Reagan who have made the same mistake….

  • dennycrane

    Wow! That photo reminds me of the “Bird-Man” that plays in the NBA from Denver. No maliciousness intended.

    As soon as this vampire sets his “hoofs” on land other than the “Vamp-I-can”, he should be thrown in jail like they did “Roman” Polanski.

  • sanchosdad

    IOKIATPope i think that the papal worshipers must be republican. how else can you explain the lack of morals and the continued abuses? the catholics will never admit they are wrong. they will jus wait for 'history to absolve them' like W is doing down in Texas.

    maybe the catholics can start burning people to death with phosphorous bombs for the cameras in broad daylight. what, that's bad? tell those israeli jews. that's what they did.

  • Patriot101

    Who does the Pope think he is God ? God would not smile on abusing kids I am certain! He will pay now or pay later as the saying goes!

  • Democratic_Socialist

    I think that Edward Scissorhands did the “do” or, more accurately, the “don't” that sits upon his ancient, rotting head.

  • ex-Catholic

    Crimes against humanity? This? In the scheme of things? I'm sorry, that's crazy talk. What we have here is a pattern horrific failures of internal organizational discipline leading to entirely justified civil and perhaps criminal liability. To cry “crimes against humanity” in a case like this is both disingenuous and irresponsible. If the Church were systematically organized with the express goal of committing sex abuses, if someone had ordered that such abuses be committed, that would be another thing. To dissipate the meaning of these words by throwing them around casually is to diminish one of the few weapons we have against true organized evil.

  • dennycrane

    Ha ha ha ha.

  • DesertWren

    Johnny Cash said it better than I ever could.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJlN9jdQFSc

  • Binturong

    That photo of the pope makes him look like a fat, elderly Billy Idol-

  • EnderW

    given the size of this coverup, and the ongoing conspiracy to do so, and to then put the criminals back into contact with new victoms, why isn't this a crime against humanity?

    i'd like to hear the legal theory that such involvement, including pope rat's personal involvement in the coverup, that it isn't crimes against humanity.

    or, is it that the current international law is too narrow, and allows for the rape of children, and the state-level enabling and coverup of such?

    in this case international law itself becomes the crime, assuming that it would not cover such as crimes against humanity.

    those who argue against a trial should be put on a watch-list.

  • EnderW

    if this were clinton, you'd already be handing him over.

    how is the coverup, and even direct involvement of pope rat in such a coverup, involving the rape of probably millions of children (tens of thousands alone called into the hotline in italy within a few hours).

    this is an organized coverup of rape of children, on one of the grandest scales in history (with the exception of the out of court insurance settlements of the protestants), of child rape and abuse.

    if this isn't a crime against humanity, then the united nations needs to repeal a shitload of war-related and human-rights related resolution.

    the convictions of the marines who raped the 8 year old girl and then shoved an m-16 up her coochie and pulled the trigger afterwards, all in the presence of her family, and those who helped cover that up, would also have to be reversed.

    ex-catholic, are you a child-rapist? i say, we take down the churches, and open their files to the world. i'm not just talking catholic too. let's see how long the clergy lives.

  • EnderW

    that's because conservatives think it's okay to rape a child, but if you get caught with a bag of weed, then they demand a life sentence.

    jesus told them to rape children, didn't you know?

  • DougI

    The Pope should have stayed in the Nazi Youth, at least his reputation was better back then.

  • scytherius

    It is time for a worldwide uprising against the great evil that is the Catholic Church. it is not a Church, it is a criminal enterprise engaging in child abuse, rape, pedophilia and fraud.

    This is something i would think that BOTH Left and Right can agree upon . . . you abuse children, we will come after you.

  • http://twitter.com/RLDH Jasmine Gallagher

    this disgusts me! i hope those victims finally get some justice that they well deserve!

  • HeilMary1

    Poop Nazi sexually blackmailed his own election. He probably also killed several British and American soldiers in WWII. No country owes him immunity.

  • Ralph

    And this asshole expects the Brit taxpayers to pop 22 mil to protect him? Where are those missing Stinger Missiles from Afghanistan when they're needed?

  • Mr. Neutron

    That guy is a frakkin' evil.
    He looks like a reptilian alien – the name Rat Zinger is no accident.
    http://aftermathnews.files.wordpress.com/2007/1…

    He also kind of looks like an old Darth Vader without his mask, but that's just coincidental:
    http://attachments.techguy.org/attachments/1523…

  • Mr. Neutron

    Hey, that's libel.
    The Pope was never in the Nazi Youth.

    He was in the Hitler Youth (Hitler-Jugend):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

    It was the youth counterpart to the Sturmabteilung (the SA).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth

  • lincolnparadox

    Yeah! Let's get all of the religions! The Catholics, both Roman and Eastern Orthodox. Tear down their churches and arrest all of their clergy. After that, head for the Lutherans, the Anglicans, and all of the other Christian spinoffs. Jail them all, and sell off their belongings for compensation.

    Then, we can do the same to the Jews. And the Muslims. And the Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists. Round them all up. Liquidate their assets and spread that money around to the people that have suffered under the yoke of these monstrous organizations.

    Is that what you want? Burn the world until religion is gone? Don't be shy, EnderW. Be proud and tell us your plan.

  • stevefromsomerset

    The evidence is overwhelming that those at the highest levels of the Catholic Church were aware of these criminal acts, sheltered the wrongdoers from criminal prosecution, and reassigned the perpetrators to new locations where such acts could be and often were repeated. Yet these same clergymen preach a doctrine that says that God knows all and will judge us upon our deaths.

    So which is it? Do they consider these acts as NOT sinful or that do they view a belief in God and Judgement Day as mythology?

  • Mark

    The ROMAN Catholic Church [thus Western Christianity] was established [institutionalized] by the Roman Emperor Constantine circa 300 – 350 ACE, when he set up The Church as the official Church of Rome [hence the Roman Catholic {Universal- as in The Empire's} Church {Note the Council of Nicaea 325 ACE]. Constantine & his mother Helena set up the 4 most important Church edifices of Christendom- St Peter's Basilica- Vatican, Church of Holy Sepulchre- Jerusalem, Church of Nativity- Bethlehem, Church of Holy Apostles- Antioch. It is the only so-called church that is officially recognized as a STATE Government w consulates in most countries & a seat at the UN, w the Pope as its head of state & the Vatican as its capital. The ROMAN Catholic Church is the only other government in history, besides the Roman Empire, to use Latin as its official language. Thus the traditions of the Church are more rooted in Greco/Roman Pagan tradition than in Biblical Scripture [even New Testament Scripture]. Further the Romans executed Yeshua of Nazareth [AKA: Jesus Christ] because he was seen as a political threat to Roman Imperial machinations in his homeland – the Holy-Land. Then they systematically Romanized [Europeanized] & Mythicized Yeshua [aka: Jesus] who was not European but of ancient Hebrew/Israelite heritage [as opposed to the modern day AshkeNAZI]. Thus the ROMAN Catholic Church must be viewed as THEE Religious extension of the Roman Empire. The Catholic celibacy rule is allegedly justified by the specious claim that Yeshua [aka: Jesus] was celibate [even though there is good reason to believe that he probably married Mary of Magdala {the evidence has been suppressed by The Church]. It appears that too often the practice [& subsequent cover-ups] of Priest sexually abusing children [primarily boys] has become Institutionalized in the Catholic Church [consider the huge number of cases, in not only several countries but across several continents, & apparently over several centuries]. But just as many / if not most Catholic traditions are rooted in Greco/Roman traditions, we must remember that Pederasty [Adult Men having ROMANtic/Sexual relations w Adolescent Boys – also known as GREEK LOVE], was an Institutionalized practice of Ancient Greece & Rome especially among its Elite Ruling classes. Who are the elite rulers of the ROMAN Catholic Church- the Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, & the Pope [not that all are involved, but certainly far too many are].

  • ed01

    The Vatican located in Rome, Vatican Gard is the Swiss. So how is it can claim its own and the pope is the head of state? Whats next Dobson claim he above the law for being a leader of far right.

  • captainfrank

    You know they want it, just look at the way they dress.

  • S in PA

    Not just child abuse, rape, pedophilia and fraud, but also protecting Nazis. No wonder they have a Nazi as pope.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europ…

    “It is well documented that German Bishop Alois Hudal in Rome operated postwar “Ratlines,” getting passports for wanted Nazis to allow them to escape justice.”

    Also, keep in mind that it was Mussolini who as Prime Minister signed the Lateran Treaty for Italy, which gave the vatican it's sovereignty. And yes, Reagan is the asshole who gave the vatican official recognition.

  • http://truthtellers.org/ Nikaloi

    What a travesty.

    As much as it disgusts me to know of the Pope's complicity in the coverup, why aren't the people aiming their fingers at the sick psychopaths who brought this behavior to begin with!?!?

    I'm talking about white phosphorous bomb rejoicing vile neocon Israeli murderers, the same ones who teach throughout their Talmud/Bible that it is righteous to mollest children.
    http://www.truthtellers.org

    These people are sin-eaters who have desecrated the Christian and Catholic churches. It says right there in their holy books that if a child three years of age is raped and assaulted, this is ordained of God and is his will.

    This is systemic- you look inside those religious texts and you find it PRAISING these very things as if they were law! Those teachings are of pure sin. If the Pope pays to settle these lawsuits, then the Kabbalist neocons should all pay for destroying Palestine & bringing white phosphorous to rain on the middle east. That is justice as all these crimes deserve!!

  • Youwillsee

    Religion has always allowed the truth to be concealed, That's why it's so successful in fooling people.

  • vince j

    That would be beautiful only if they also prossecute Tony Blair and Gordon Browm for WAR CRIMES.
    Sex crimes are as aborrent as War Crimes! Both deserve prossecution.

  • HeilMary1

    Everyone, the despicable adulterous, polygamous, gay-bashing, John Kerry-bashing Deal Hudson who founded InsideCatholic.com is publishing disgusting defenses of these pedophile priests. He's blaming “liberal anti-Catholic” MSM. I've been banned SEVERAL TIMES for posting the truth there. Hudson is the Newt Gingrich and Randall Terry of publishing and academia in Catholicism. He cheated on 3 different wives and got 2 annulments and was outed by the National Catholic Reporter for cheating on his 3rd with a student at Fordham who then sued him for harassment. He had to pay her $30,000 because she probably had an abortion. Nevertheless, the Hudster keeps reinventing himself as the American lay Catholic Inquisitor/Ayatollah who bullied American bishops to oppose health care reform “to fight abortion and gays”. Mind you, he defends CLOSET gay and playboy clergy and attacks abuse victims. Everyone should post pro-victim comments on his and other articles, including his latest “Why Do the Media Hate the Church?” which amazing still has two comments regarding his sex scandal. His Kool Aid fans are unbelievably nasty towards church victims.

  • DougI

    Nazi Youth, Hitler Youth, whatever.

  • Digger2000

    The top of the RCC hierarchy was interested enough in individual priest who were proponents of Liberation Theology to take punitive measures against those priests who strayed from the Vatican line.

    It is a severe negative moral judgment on the RCC's lack of moral judgment that child rapist priests were not dealt with as stringently as those priests who were trying to help the poor.

    Predators on the powerless were protected. Protectors of the powerless were persecuted.

    And now that the Pope is claiming to be the “Head of a state” and immune from legal process does this mean that tolerating child sexual torture is his government’s policy? Maybe the U.S. should send the Vatican's ambasassador home with a note.

  • when_the_whip_comes_down

    Johny Cash truly had an understanding and respect of his own dark spirit.
    Cut You Down is an enduring cut and the video is a wonderful snapshot of time.
    The song takes the perspective as seen and judged by an observer.
    The song that Johnny Cash covered that was running through my mind this weekend takes the perspective of the offender but it is probably a lot deeper than the church could understand. That Johnny Cash covered Hurt as his last release I find ironic, eerie and
    it still chokes me up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmVAWKfJ4Go&feat…

  • GunTotinLiberal

    I don’t think the immunity a head of state enjoys applies to crimes committed before they were a head of state. Besides, being a head of state certainly didn’t help Saddam.

  • when_the_whip_comes_down

    Saddam fell outside of the benefits international laws because the Bu$h doctrine became the law that the US applied internationally and in a more secretive way domestically.
    With his ritualistic signing statements Bu$h made clear that the laws were written to be used at his pleasure and that he had no obligation to follow them. Clearly, the broad execution of the Bu$h doctrine was illegal but anybody who would point that out would become road tar.

  • when_the_whip_comes_down

    It seems that EnderW is an advocate of shining a light into the dark secrets of these natural spirit displacing institutions for the benefit of the public at large. If a consumer is to beware of products than secrecy in these social institutions holds only peril for said consumer and nefarious treasure for those employed in these institutions.
    If convictions are the natural result of this look into the sins of these institutions than fairness will have been achieved. I do agree with EnderW in that society should have progressed past subjecting ones natural spirit to these snake oil salesmen.

  • when_the_whip_comes_down

    I'm thinking that he looks like a cockatiel.

  • SSpeedracer

    Sorry, I didnt even read the story. Just wanted to post that I had a big laugh reading the Title. Then almost fell over when that picture of the Pope's hair came up. Good stuff, thanks for lightening up my day.

  • coolbreeze55

    He was a member of the Nazi army and was held in an American POW camp in 1945.
    Fox news ratted him out.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,153942,00.html

  • Mr. Neutron

    Hey, he's a deserter.

    Just like W.

    “One man's traitor is another man's hero”
    – George Washington

  • lincolnparadox

    WTWCD–

    You're probably right. If sure that's exactly what he meant when he said “i say, we take down the churches, and open their files to the world. i'm not just talking catholic too. let's see how long the clergy lives.”

    Bigotry is NOT acceptable, even if you disagree with something about the lifestyle/decisions of the prejudiced.

  • Mel-Glib-Son

    Mel Gibson's new movie…………

    THE PASSION OF THE POPE

    rated A-Z

  • desertvoice

    The arrest of a Catholic Pope is unthinkable from my perspective. This would amount to insulting a billion innocent people. The sole speculation of this nature is bloodcurdling. Especially on the Easter Day when Christ, who instituted the Pope as His Vicar, celebrates His Passion and Resurrection! A Pope not always knows everything that his bishops are doing. That is why the power is delegated. But these speculators seem determined to offend the entire Christianity because some priest, some decades ago, committed a grievous, but non-bloody crime! More respect is required, people, and more proportionality of judgment!

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/IVNYOXMDCONAQJ35E4MRRD533A identalias

    Let me know, hypocrites, when you prosecute the US and zio war criminals.

  • HeilMary1

    I flagged your criminal defense of this mother-killing, Nazi-smuggling, pedophile-enabling thug. You must be a pedophile yourself, creep!

  • when_the_whip_comes_down

    Using religion as a shield to mask criminality does nothing to benefit the institution.
    If the institution is the vehicle that facilitates these crimes then the institution must be dismantled.

  • yaright

    Fuck. I would buy cable just to see the live telecast of him getting off the popemojet and dragged away irons

  • yaright

    George Washington never said that.

    What the fuck is your source for that slanderous quite????????

    Sounds more like ron raygun… one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

  • yaright

    Guilty is guilty. He cant hide behind his dress.

  • yaright

    He ONLY concern is protecting vatacunt treasure. You're disgusting

  • Rick

    PedOPhilE…what's in a name???

  • lincolnparadox

    Using the actions of a few to persecute the many is the first step towards genocide.

    Not every priest abused children. Not every Catholic leader condoned the cover-up. The Church is more than these few. You and EnderW are suggesting the “dismantling” of an organization of 1 billion people. Punish the guilty, that's fine. Demand the dominance of the secular authority, that's fine too. But the moment you start suggesting the dissolution of an institution, just because a minority of them broke the law, that's when you lose your moral superiority.

  • when_the_whip_comes_down

    Associating the dissolving of an institution with persecution I find an overreach and Ironic.
    The church has made persecution its primary pastime for its making these godly hypocritical decisions here on earth. With the church planting the holy see in the UN so as to undermine any progress towards overpopulation disease control with its archaic birth control ban. The church has been known to kick up a few dozen crusades (persecution?}. The church has been known to burn scientists at the stake or imprison them for life {persecution?}. The church has been known to take possession of bastard children from unwed mothers only to deny them of any education yet use them as slaves (sex and otherwise). I suppose that the perception of persecution is a matter of who is on the receiving end.

  • lincolnparadox

    The UN has three non-members that maintain a seat at the table: Taiwan, Kosovo and the Vatican. If you're going to start talking separation of church and state, then you start the argument to remove all theocracies from the UN. I'm guessing I don't need to list those nations for you. The Vatican doesn't have a vote, it just gets to talk. It also gets to be admonished, like it was on March 16th by the Human Right Council for the pedophilia and cover-ups.

    I agree that the Church's policy of abstinence-only education is inappropriate for most 3rd world nations, but when you bring up Copernicus, slavery and the Crusades, you suggest that your argument is based on a very shaky premise.

    This argument started because EnderW suggested that the churches should be torn down and the clergy allowed to die. I suggested that this was inappropriate, as it verges on genocide.

    What exactly are you arguing for, WTWCD? Do you want to tear down the Church for the abuses committed four centuries ago? Ten centuries ago? Or can we try to focus on the past 100 years. The Church went through a reformation in 1977. Pope John Paul II spent his entire career trying to make amends for the mistakes of the Church. If what you want is blood for 2000 years of history, I take offense. If you want justice for these children, and you can accept the arrest and prosecution of those involved, then I'm with you.

  • when_the_whip_comes_down

    I am not calling for any malice or blood. None of my posts have called for any such thing. The church has the history of shedding blood with little regard for life on a genocidal scale. What we have with this institution is a highly secretive cult that is a political player that intends to have authority status on personal matters on a global basis. The manufactured church product is a synthetic spiritual displacer with the effect of a hyper-reality for the end user. This is globalized psychological programming that is sold in a package that does not represent the actual contents of that package. The requirement of the clergy to maintain celibacy for life is one such synthetic protocol that has implications,
    It will eventually manifest somewhere, usually in secret among the most vulnerable.
    All I am saying is that The whole church structure is an antiquated relic that is being used for nefarious conquests that are reminiscent of the dark ages and that such an institution does not belong in a modern society.

    The child slavery incident occurred in Canada in the late 50's and I understand that a more recent example was going on in Ireland.

  • lincolnparadox

    WTWCD–

    By defending EnderW, you were condoning violence. Unintentionally, to be sure, but s/he was asking for blood.

    I had forgotten about the child roundups in places like Canada and the South Pacific. I don't know if I agree with the term “slavery” for most situtaions (not all of these orphans wards were treated in the same terrible manner) but that doesn't make the Church's pogrom of cultural editing/destruction any better.

    As for your final statement, I agree that for thinking people (you and I, perhaps) the Church represents a thought filter, or a thought governor. The Church presents a list of ethics and rules that should be followed without question, and then the Church contains individuals within Her leadership that do not represent these ideals at all. It's hypocrisy, and offensive, and for a free-thinking, educated person its downright offensive.

    But the Church isn't for people who have found their way. The Church is a life raft for the lost. People with broken wills, broken minds, broken hearts and broken spirits. If all the Church was about was control and subjugation, everyone would have left during the Reformation five centuries ago. At a local level, the Church creates communities of like-minded people. Those communities support the individual, the family and the institution (in that order). Not every parish has a molester priest. Not every parish takes children from their parents. Not every parish starts a Crusade.

    The reason the Church has 1 billion members is because of the local level leadership, and many people still need that sense of community and belonging, the guidance of the clergy, and rules for living dictated by Catholic theology and dogma. It's not like Catholicism is the only game in town, and you can leave the Church any time you like. People stay because of tradition, family, friends and community.

  • http://reform-network.net/?p=3959 Voice from the Desert » Blog Archive » UN judge calls for prosecution of Pope Benedict

    [...] issue warrants for nearly any visitor accused of grievous crimes, no matter where they live,” the Associated Press reported. “British judges have been more open to the concept than those in other countries.” [...]

  • http://thenetwar.com/2010/04/dikastis-tou-oie-theli-na-askisi-dioxi-kata-tou-papa/ Δικαστής του ΟΗΕ θέλει να ασκήσει

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