You’re just running away from what I’m saying. Don’t be so afraid of the truth. The truth is all we’ve got now that Obama has destroyed the Democratic Party.

Well, some people have poor hygiene and don’t change their clothes very often, much less clean them and give them a good airing out regularly…his Red Shirt is now stinking to high heaven…surprisingly once again…I agree with your assessment.

Well, some people have poor hygiene and don’t change their clothes very often, much less clean them and give them a good airing out regularly…his Red Shirt is now stinking to high heaven…surprisingly once again…I agree with your assessment.

Correct.

Correct.

Your stupidity and blind support of the Blue Shirts is laughable. Bush’s war is now firmly folded into Obama’s wallet.

Your stupidity and blind support of the Blue Shirts is laughable. Bush’s war is now firmly folded into Obama’s wallet.

What is Gates’ history and why was he kept on?

What is Gates’ history and why was he kept on?

Obama didn’t say we needed to invade. We were already there, you nitwit. He said we needed to withdraw from Iraq and try to finish what we started in Afghanistan. The strategy is NOT just about shooting and trying to defeat the Taliban militarily. It actually has a very heavy rebuilding and education component in an effort to make the Taliban and Al Qaeda less attractive and to try to pull together the Afghan economy. Take a look at Afghan polls. The majority of Afghans actually want us there and want our help in rebuilding their economy and stopping the hugely unpopular Taliban.

Obama didn’t say we needed to invade. We were already there, you nitwit. He said we needed to withdraw from Iraq and try to finish what we started in Afghanistan. The strategy is NOT just about shooting and trying to defeat the Taliban militarily. It actually has a very heavy rebuilding and education component in an effort to make the Taliban and Al Qaeda less attractive and to try to pull together the Afghan economy. Take a look at Afghan polls. The majority of Afghans actually want us there and want our help in rebuilding their economy and stopping the hugely unpopular Taliban.

Waging war in Afghanistan is one of the campaign promises Obama is keeping. Creating a social democracy is the other. Interestingly, the war disturbs the left. His incredible spending and taxation to socialize the USA are going to see Democrats and progressive Republicans turned out of office. This will lead to universal health care’s repeal.

What an utter failure as President, leftist, and a person he is “the one”.

Waging war in Afghanistan is one of the campaign promises Obama is keeping. Creating a social democracy is the other. Interestingly, the war disturbs the left. His incredible spending and taxation to socialize the USA are going to see Democrats and progressive Republicans turned out of office. This will lead to universal health care’s repeal.

What an utter failure as President, leftist, and a person he is “the one”.

More NEOCON insults from Paul
LOL

The reality of the situation is that Obama basically ran as an anti-war candidate, and now he commands more troops in more theaters of war than bush ever did. He lied to us all. I think we should all take our meds now.

what a compelling argument

Your efforts to support more war are disgusting.

Oh, yes, the military will get right on that.

Anybody know if Stanley McChrystal is done redressing Pat Tillman’s corpse?

That doesn’t make him wrong, you dope. And we were headed towards a war in Iran. Remember that Strait of Hormuz video? That was completely fabricated by the Pentagon.

We need to SEE and HEAR of the true horrors of War to grasp it’s inhumanity towrds the “enemy” and what it does to the humanity of those who fight in one. Cronkite et al gave us that in lving colour Nightly for years. That gave us all pause to really think thru and See what happens. To examine skeletons individually, admit them and then accept the consequences of thos actions which made them is Hard to do and something most are not just loathe to do but avoid. As a Society and as a Nation it’s even more difficult since the scale and scope rocks us to our individual and collective core. We then must face our own humanity collectvely and that we Refuse to do. Without changing that we will NEVER change the politics and practice of engaging in War…

pax

Yes, I’ll never forget when Obama said, “I’ll take this country to war in Afghanistan.” Boy, that was something.

This is consistent with everything else we're learned about Obama since January 2009. He is a madman. There are no limits to his disdain for human rights. He's caused more damage to our country than any previous enemy. By far.

It's time to talk impeachment.

,”’╭⌒╮⌒╮.’,”’,,’,.”,,’,”,.
╱◥██◣”o’,”’,,’,.”.”,,’,.
｜田｜田田│ ”,,’,.’,”’,,’,.”
╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬
>>>——I love you! —->
Never frown, even when you are sad, because you never know who is falling in love with your smile.

Despite all the life danger, with one selfless act from one common person, someone is saved, A hero is made.

welcome to my stores:
http://www.guccionlineshop.org/gucci-sunglasses…

http://www.skecherssale.org/christian-louboutin…

http://mbt.shoemkt.com/mbt-chapa-shoes-c-1112.html

No, not hardly. This is an entirely new operation, not and escalation.

I think you’re projecting. It sounds like you have a tough time dealing with reality. My prescription for you: take a valium and then jump off a bridge.

What a surprise – not.
Just more of that hopey changey administration…

Yeah, but before Obama there was strong opposition.

Where there was once opposition we now have a bunch of hypocritical cowards throwing flowers at a smiling despot.

Several of them have posted to this thread.

Idiot. Just because Bush didn’t follow through doesn’t mean Sy was wrong. He’s not the oracle predicting whats destined to happen. For whatever reason Bush didn’t begin a full scale war. Good for everybody – but there’s no denying he was ramping up to it and preparing for it. Whether it was all a bluff or Sy’s reporting stopped it, you’ll have to ask Bush & Cheney yourself.

Sy Hersh has broken some block-buster stories. I've never seen him to be wrong. This is surely a sad day for all of us who have taken that oath to uphold and defend the U.S. Constitution.

Sounds great, Vexed Virginian. Good luck with that.

I rest my case.

Time to double-up on the meds.

your an idiot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meds are for the people who can't face reality. (For you.)

Please get mental help.

Please get mental help.

Most progressives will easily admit that Obama has lived up to his promises, which is to say, we KNEW he wasn’t anti-war, anti-corporate, anti-oil, anti-nuke, anti-military/industrial/security complex, or anti-fascist and he has proved us correct. ALL we knew (and it was enough to get us elected) was that he was NOT an EXACT CLONE of the Bush/Cheney team, and he has proven that to be true. He’s not an EXACT clone, more like an imperfect, fourth-generation photocopy — a little less asshole, a little less pathetic, a little more lucid, but the same old crap.

Most of us are surprised, of course at just how close to the Bush/Cheney crap he DID turn out to be, and how most of the change (and there has been a lot) has been superficial and policy-level rather than BASIC and THEMATIC.

Is Obama better than Bush/Cheney? Of course. Is he BETTER ENOUGH? Not by a long shot.

We were given a choice between being screwed without lube (McCain/Palin) and being screwed with lots of lube (Obama/Biden). We took the later. That’s how the two-party system works.

Either way, the military/security/industrial complex gets their government, their bailouts, their giant, no-bid contracts, and their massive profits. The middle class gets smaller and smaller. The lower class gets poorer and poorer. The safety net gets more and more holes in it. Freedom, equality and fairness get rarer and harder to find.

Welcome to the United States of America as it has been for the last forty years — nothing much changes.

The people who need mental help are the ones who support secret prisons, torture, and summary executions simply because a smiling despot is in charge.

Case in point.

You NEOCON character assignation doesn’t work
Your Arrogance is NEOCON boilerplate.
Get off your high horse.

I'm telling the truth. That's why you're upset. Take a moment to think about it.

People who contend that Obama started this war are PSYCHOTIC

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/05/06/kil…

Good reply to his nasty dismissive comment.

The very first time I had a drunken conversation with a real live troubled Vet was in Florida in 1979. He told me stories I could not believe at the time………….but there was no doubt he believed them, he was sincere. I thought he was insane.
Later that night he got in a fight with a guy who outweighed him by 100 pounds and probably would have killed him if not for people who intervened. Later on I saw him outside crying like a child. He was broken, the US military broke him.
After meeting more people who were in Vietnam, I came to know that our military is far far worse than most people realize. And it is worse today than it was then.

I would advise the Vexed Virginian to google, ‘Winter soldier, Iraq, Afghanistan’
If the Vexed one has any courage, any integrity and any compassion, he will spend an hour or so listening to our vets, and decide for himself about the Doctor and the Nurse.
One thing is certain, if he makes it through one hour of Winter soldier testimony, he will have heard much worse, much worse.

What?

This is Obama's War. EVERYBODY told him to stay out, but he wanted to start killing people.

Where are you getting your “information”?

Like I said, time for you to double-up on the meds. Heed your own words.

Uh…when did we go into Afghanistan, and where was Barack Obama at the time?

Scientists at Rolls Royce built a gun specifically to launch dead chickens at the windshields of airliners and military jets all travelling at maximum velocity. The idea was to simulate the frequent incidents of collisions with airborne fowl to test the strength of the windshields.
American engineers heard about the gun and were eager to test it on the windshields of their new high speed trains. Arrangements were made, and a gun was sent to the American engineers. When the gun was fired, the engineers stood shocked as the chicken hurled out of the barrel, crashed into the shatterproof shield, smashed it to smithereens, blasted through the control console, snapped the engineer's back-rest in two and embedded itself in the back wall of the cabin like an arrow shot from a bow..
The horrified engineers sent Rolls Royce the disastrous results of the experiment, along with the designs of the windshield and begged the British scientists for suggestions.
Rolls Royce responded with a one-line memo:
Defrost the chicken..
http://www.christianlouboutinshoessale.org/chri…
http://www.skechersshape-upsshoes.com/mbt-chapa…
http://www.uggbootsonlinesales.com/sunglasses-s…

.
FREEDOM LOVING U.S. TROOPS GIFT ETERNAL PEACE TO WAR-TORN AFGHAN HEARTS & MINDS
.

Obama will never own George Bush's war.

I wish the super vigilant extra powerful moderators at rawstory were half as interested in censoring the sketcherasshole as they were in censoring political content………….

How about /you/ take a moment to think? Obama didn't start the war, in case you'd forgotten. His predecessor did. And at any rate, good luck with impeachment. We couldn't manage to impeach Bush and Cheney–why would Obama be any different?

And W Bush will never get a chance to break the world record for drone murders, a record held by Obama and one that grows every day.

They are not Bush wars, they are not Obama wars.
They are Bushbama wars, and you are one of their biggest supporters, even though you are too dishonest to admit it.

Sy, in 2005, said we were going to war in Iran. The “boots” on the ground were heading in that direction. We knew the CIA were there, of course. But, it didn't happen. Maybe just “spilling” the beans about it prevented it. After seeing the HBO series of “Pacific”, he might have got the soldiers mixed up.

Sadly, the lunatics on the right have been correct all along that Obama is not a moral man.

Obama is a glib Bush.

I'm with you capers!
Obama started the Afghan War right after he sold AIG a ga-jillion dollars worth of bad mortgages.
And he traveled back in time — 'cause he's an alien, from outer space, not Mexico — and bombed Pearl Harbor and shot Lincoln and invented Syphilis!!!
Go Capers!

AtlanticCapers where have you been for the past 10 years. I have never ever read such idiotic comments from any one like these. You need help, professional help. I truly feel sorry for you. Obama's war sorry but words fail me.

Oh, I guess nobody told you…

When Barack Obama came to office, he was left with a security force in Afghanistan guarding the puppet government installed by George W. Bush. There was a big debate about finally pulling that security force out. But Obama instead decided to go after the entire country. Now he's torturing and murdering people at will in an effort to take the entire country.

Let me know what else you don't know.

ROFLMAO. thats funny

Thanks, grump! Why is it that so many liberals still think the demotards are anything but Bush-lite? They’re all f*cking war criminals and need to be treated that way.

I want treason trials, treason convictions, treason punishments by execution when found guilty. If this is a fair and just land, EVERY ONE OF THEM, OBAMA AND BUSH INCLUDED, WILL BE BROUGHT UP ON TREASON CHARGES AND EXECUTED WHEN FOUND GUILTY. NOTHING LESS WILL SATISFY THE ANGERING AND BUILDING MASSES. THEY ARE WAR CRIMINALS AND NEED TO BE TREATED AS SUCH. Peace!

It pains me to agree but there is no getting around it. Big fan of Sy and he is almost always spot on and delves into the topic with both feet for months on end. He has developed some incredible sources.

Your arrogance is amusing

LIke it or not the demorats have been partner to all this and are as bankrupt as the rethuglicans.

Americans get fooled every time they vote.

“”more damage to our country than any other enemy in the last fifty years”"”" Does the name george w “botch” ring a bell ? ? ? ? you freakin moron.

I'm not happy with Obama….but blaming him for either Afghanistan or Iraq… is like blaming the wrecker driver for scratching the paint on a car wrapped around a tree. You gotta be shitting me.

He STARTED the WAR???? WTF who are you Rip Vanwinkle…did you just wake up yesterday or something… The one R E S P O N S I B L E for STARTING the war was “botch/cheney” and the oil companies. They are the ones who lied their way into attacking Iraq and Afghanistan. You obviously have an internet connection…. STFU and go do some research. Let me guess…..You voted for Botch both times. Idiot

Or…. lets go to plan B… And YOU take a moment to think… No not sure just a moment is all you are going to need. I'm thinking…. maybe a week will catch you up to reality…

Obama is the Commander In Chief, he decided to send an additional 30,000 troops and increase drone attacks in Pakistan, attacks which have killed several innocent civilians. Even before he took office he supported the war in Afghanistan, said it was the right war. The only war he was really opposed to was the war in Iraq. So he is doing everything he said he would do in this case.

That means it is his war, he may not have started it, but he is not only continuing it, he is expanding it. Calling people idiots because you can't face the fact that Obama is presiding over continued abuses and an overal problematic geopolitical strategy is not going to change that.

One more thing, if you murder your wife, and I know that you did, and help you hide the body and then let you evade the police in my house, I am an accomplice after the fact. Think about that for a moment. Most of you are so sure that Bush and Cheney are war criminals, yet you don't seem to mind the fact that Obama has let them get away with it and publicly stated he wants to move “forward”.

I'm not saying you need to start hating Obama, I'm only asking you to think critically. In know you can do it but for whatever reason you have let a combination of hate for Bush and a love for Obama blind you to the truth which is much more complicated.

Nobody should fight in any war unless their country is being attacked and I don’t mean attacked by their own government.

How low can we sink as a nation? As a vet I hope that his reporting is wrong on this. I know that the men I fought with would find this very disturbing if true.

Yes, there will always be wars. But America used to at least pay lip service to the idea that a world in peace was better than a world at war.

America doesn’t always have to be the one to start the wars; or if we don’t start one, then we don’t have to escalate or prolong it. When we’re attacked, yes, maybe it would actually be a good idea to build up sympathy among allies instead of playing cowboy and getting embroiled in crap we can’t get out of gracefully.

America doesn’t have to constantly “lead” the world in a fashion that pisses off the rest of the world (that would be the “American exceptionalism” mentioned) and so effectively fatten the wallets of those in charge– at the expense of American citizens, as well as the people in the countries that are invaded by both our military as well as our corporations. There are perfectly rational non-terroristic reasons to despise America and our bizarre attitude that we have a God-given right to bomb the hell out of anything America’s leaders don’t like.

And America doesn’t have to automatically revert to calling anything that harms US citizens “war”. The “culture war” is not a war. The “War on Drugs” is not a war. The “War on Terror” is not a war. But this knee-jerk reaction to use war-style propaganda and yellow-ish journalism certainly keeps the proles thinking in those terms, and keeps huge numbers of citizens willing to give up their civil liberties in the name of some non-existent “security”, and to accept despicable acts of espioonage, torture and assassination committed by our own government.

End result? We’re becoming a country of unabashed jackbooted nationalists.

We don’t even pretend to be the good guys anymore.

I know what he did.

Bush was able to turn the Republican Party into a pro-torture, pro-murder, pro-imperialism party.

That's bad, but nothing compared to what Obama did. Obama not only let the Republicans walk, but he got the Democrats to walk with them. That's what makes him, by far, more damaging.

Obama had an opportunity to save us, but he instead pushed us over the edge. He destroyed what we once were. And you helped him.

Neocon? More stupidity from Edwards…

Why reply to these things if you are just going to spout one liners that add absolutely nothing to the conversation?

If you know what he did then please tell me why you think my interpretation does not make sense.

You know Nixon could have given the same excuse when it took him another ten years to end the war in Vietnam. After all it was Johnson who started it. But that wouldn't make any sense because Nixon expanded the war and illegally bombed Cambodia, kind of how Obama is expanding the war in Afghanistan and bombing Pakistan.

Watchout Hurly, the imbecile Edwards…who apparently has no concept of what NEOCON means, wants to spew characters under your post. Possibly passing gas will help.

Or maybe there is another lexicon Dictionary floating around that points to anti-war people as being NEOCONS. If NEOCON is someone who supports Ron Paul and his foreign policy ideas, I’m gonna get me a shirt.

You NEOCON character insults doesn’t work
Your Arrogance is NEOCON boilerplate.
Get off your high horse.

No. It is not. The same people are prosecuting the same policy for the politico’s and I don’t think we even got a catchy new name for it…Like Operation “Enduring Fuck-up” which might make it sumpin’ semantically new.

If there's something you don't understand, let me know, and I'll explain it. This is basic stuff.

No real surprise there. Not surprised at all.

Lou
http://www.anonymous-posting.us.tc

You obviously haven't been listening to Obama. He said it was a mistake to invade Iraq when we should have invaded Afghanistan. He's now invading Afghanistan.

This is not a point of debate. Well, except for the people who really really want to rewrite history in hopes of making Obama's War something other than Obama's War.

Posters forget, W started the war = W war crimes.

Nope.
During the campaign Obama said he was going to increase the troop levels in Afghanistan, this is one of the main reasons I didn't vote for him. You're making up a false narrative, he decided what he would do BEFORE he was elected.

I've been calling Obama a neocon since well before he was elected simply because he said he would continue the Bush/Cheney madness.

You're full of crap, this isn't Obama's war, we've been there for a decade.

Obama didn't destroy what we once were, the military madness was going on well before he was POTUS.

“destroyed what we once were” ????? where do you come up with this bullshit ? ?

Bush lied his way into illegally invading another country. Killing 100,000's of people. Ruining this nations economy, destroying another, torturing, wiretapping, creating the “patriot act”. and home land security

THAT'S WHO WE ONCE WERE ! ! ! AND YOU HELPED WITH THAT

The Pratt Victory was the name of the ship my Father served on in World War II.

What else have you got?

I think you’re in a position to make a fool of yourself. Continue . . .

The Pratt Victory was the name of the ship my Father served on in World War II.

What else have you got?

I think you’re in a position to make a fool of yourself. Continue . . .

Yep, Capers is a troll.

I challenged the post that OBAMA started the war. It is not anybodies excuse. Get off your high horse.

,”’╭⌒╮⌒╮.’,”’,,’,.”,,’,”,.
╱◥██◣”o’,”’,,’,.”.”,,’,.
｜田｜田田│ ”,,’,.’,”’,,’,.”
╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬
>>>——I love you! —->
They are not Bush wars, they are not Obama wars.
They are Bushbama wars, and you are one of their biggest supporters, even though you are too dishonest to admit it.

Never frown, even when you are sad, because you never know who is falling in love with your smile.

Despite all the life danger, with one selfless act from one common person, someone is saved, A hero is made.

welcome to my stores:
http://www.guccionlineshop.org/gucci-sunglasses…

http://www.skecherssale.org/christian-louboutin…

http://mbt.shoemkt.com/mbt-chapa-shoes-c-1112.html

You seem to be responding to a narrative you came up with on your own. I don't even care when he “decided” to torture and murder the people of Afghanistan. (The meme you use is a lie, however. Obama's talk about taking action in Afghanistan was aimed at securing specific areas in response to very specific situations. He DID NOT say he wanted to secure the entire country. Never.)

But it's interesting how you go on to contradict yourself. After you give Obama credit for his war, you try to give the credit to Bush and Cheney.

It must be hard work trying to deny the things you know to be true. Why bother?

I presume you felt the same about the Iraq War, AtlanticCapers?

You're a full of crap troll.
I did not give credit to Obama for the Bush/Cheney war because very clearly Obama didn't start it. Don't try to spin my comments.

Again, you're a full of crap troll here to annoy folks, piss off.

I protested those things Loudly.

I protested them when Bush was in charge and I'm protesting them now that Obama is in charge. I'm doing so right here in this thread.

You, on the other hand, are supporting these atrocities now that Obama is in charge.

You are living proof that what I say is true.

Thanks for making this so easy. Really. That was a thing of beauty.

Hearts and minds.
Pursuing the American empire will make some rich, but is bad for America as a nation.

Of course.

You're living proof that trolls on the internet can be total assholes.

What you're really saying is, “Truth is a bitch.”

No, you're a bitch.
I don't even like Obama, but the fact is he didn't start the war in Afghanistan. Just a fact you moron.

You're here spewing silly troll garbage you putz.

I’m good, you adequately revealed yourself to the group… much to easy with you types that hide behind your flags and guns when everyone knows that faux and borrowed patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel-

I’m good, you adequately revealed yourself to the group… much to easy with you types that hide behind your flags and guns when everyone knows that faux and borrowed patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel-

Now run along.

Now run along.

Good comments — couldn’t agree more!

Good comments — couldn’t agree more!

Well, yeah, battlefield atrocities happen in battle. There's only one way to end them, and that's to end the wars. All of them. For all time.

Our nation has become a nation of fatass armchair warriors taking their cheering orders from unabashedly evil ultra-wealthy corporatist mother-effers at the top.

The only exceptional thing about American “exceptionalism” is that it's absolutely doomed to fail, because it's supported by legions of mouthbreathing idiots who have zero idea what war is actually like, and zero idea about what the rest of the world actually feels about us.

Many of us are angry with Obama because he shafted those of us who elected him. Why he is doing that is controversial.

When Obama learns of this he will put a stop to it.

Great news. Eventually, these American patriots will just murder everyone in Afghanistan! End of problem.

Surprise, surprise, surprise…

SEE:
Afghans oppose U.S. hit list of drug traffickers

PUBLIC OUTRAGE FEARED Justice system will be undermined, officials say
Washington Post
By Craig Whitlock
Saturday, October 24, 2009

“KABUL — A U.S. military hit list of about 50 suspected drug kingpins is drawing fierce opposition from Afghan officials, who say it could undermine their fragile justice system and trigger a backlash against foreign troops.

The U.S. military and NATO officials have authorized their forces to kill or capture individuals on the list, which was drafted within the past year as part of NATO's new strategy to combat drug operations that finance the Taliban. The list is thought to include people with close ties to the Afghan government and others who have served as intelligence assets for the CIA and the U.S. military, according to current and former U.S. and Afghan officials.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar…

If you are implying that the U.S. Government attacked NYC on 9/11, you are gullible. 

________________________________

IDF advice
IDF advisors
Robert Gates
Stanley McChrystal
(trolls call murder heroic)
What would Tillman say?

Whenever I get the urge to travel to another world, I just go to Raw Story.  You guys do crazy like no one else.

________________________________

Absolutely Vince, wasn’t Obamas campaign platform to end the war,kinda went the other way on that one.

The US has done much more damage to itself than any enemy of the past 50yrs. The rise of the reich-wing in America since 1980 has accelerated the problems. Obama in one year is just providing some icing on the cake. So far.

Af-Pak can now be called Obama’s war because he escalated it and spread its borders. That is, if there were any borders for warzones anymore.

The left and those who could be duped voted in Obama.  I too can remember all the wishful imagining that Obama was this or that but not be defined by what he claimed to want to do the most.  For now we have “the One.”  All the carping from his very supporters is irony to behold.  As you say, he said Afghanistan is the place we should be fighting.  Well, we certainly are.

The good news is that he is going to be a one term President with nothing but failures as his legacy.  A conservative Tea Party tide is washing out as many Democrat and Republican progressives as possible in one election coming in November.  Then, the cleaning resumes in 2012.

________________________________

I spoke to an Army nurse who said doctors where experimenting on Afghani civilians. He said there was a 15 year old with severe head trauma and American Army doctors were cutting open his chest to practice surgery. There was no medical reason to be cutting open his chest. When he objected he was told to shut up. So he euthanized to boy to put an end to his misery.

The problem you are having here is directly relating to the semantics of using the word “started” rather than “escalated”…

Aren’t there rules defining acceptable levels of “collateral damage”? By way of example, the Army Field Manual has its interrogation rules. Another example would be the torture memos and associated documents. This is the kind of stuff that (supposedly) gives the go ahead for various acts on the battlefield.

Don’t get me wrong, such a thing may well be classified, but surely there’s some document somewhere that explicitly defines where the lines are drawn, and thus at least implicitly allows for practice surgery on a still-living but terminal enemy combatant. An SOP like that doesn’t just spring up out of thin air.

Personally, I don’t believe it at this point, coming from some random person on the internet (no offense)– but the accusation is a compelling one, and one I haven’t ever heard. If this story is true, someone needs to blow that story wide open, because that’s another Abu Ghraib in the making, x1000.

I don't believe your statement.

How would you accomplish this? There are always going to be wars.

Are you a bot or do you have a bunch of stock replies ready to be copy and pasted? Either way you don’t make any sense.

Oh really? And how did you know this person was an Army nurse? Did he/she just tell you that and you believed it? Why would American surgeons have to “practice” on someone when they get to do the real deal every day? You're either a liar or an extremely gullible fool if you think THAT sort of thing is going on.

He is the Commander in Chief, if he doesn't know he's a failure.

Why do you think I or the person who told me this would have a reason to make up such a story?

He “started this war”? Are you that stupid you can't recall it was Bush who invaded Afghanistan AND Iraq and left the mess for Obama to try to clean up when he came into office?

Atrocities DO happen in war. That's a fact. But I haven't seen or heard anything which says this is policy or approved of at the top or anything else giving it sanction. If there are atrocities happening then the military needs to investigate and step in and stop it.

Fool us once shame on you, fool us twice and shame on us.

Thanks

This is SOP for military field surgeons. It's not like MASH — you don't get that many chests to cut into, especially if you're new. And when an enemy combatant is dead, or as good as dead, surgeons practice battlefield techniques all the time, sometimes even shooting a dead or dying EC and then operating on the wound. This has been going on for hundreds of years. Battlefield surgeons are Regular Army, not Marcus Welby. And when you're in the military, you're military first and a doctor second (you're not surround by doctors, you're surrounded by THE ARMY). Sheesh, how naive can you be.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Obama is Clinton. They came up from the same political machine.

that and the people posting with sock-puppets that post “anonymizer links”

RAW, you really need to do something about the freaking spammers on this site.

For example this guy, comments to almost EVERY story. Has the same sig of “Lou” and has a different “anonymizer” link at the bottom of every post with a different username each time.

The guy was troubled by it. He was drinking at a bar with his wife when the subject of the wiki-leaks film came up. He said both he and a fellow nurse were told to shut up about it.

He said the kid had severe head trauma and would never lead a normal life, yet cutting him up like they were doing seemed to both of them barbaric. So he injected him with something to euthanize him.

He said the other nurse was having emotional problems, drinking and drug abuse dealing with it.

Easy, you simply kill every one that opposes you……then you have peace. We ARE working on that.

Ah, it's the famous “fog of war” where nice-sounding orders turn into battlefield atrocities. Of course, a never-ending war (declared or not) comes with never-ending “fog.” Apparently, we have enough excuses to cover any number of murders going forward.

I don't. He was sitting next to me with his wife at a bar. On the other hand I don't find it plausible that he would spill such a story without there being truth to it.

It is understandable to be skeptical, but not dismissive. I didn't see a reason to doubt his word. It seemed it was a weight he was carrying and was trying to deal with it. It is interesting that you would be so quick to dismiss such an allegation.

OBAMA'S WAR, OBAMA'S WAR CRIMES.

Are you joking? Our so-called leader is willing to kill a US citizen. I doubt he gives a damn about the lives of prisoners.

OBAMA'S WAR, OBAMA'S WAR CRIMES.

Seymour Hersh DID NOT break the story of Abu Ghraib. It was uncovered by others and he capitalized on it AFTER all the hard work and research had been done by Christian Peacemakers Team- who had been begging for help on the issue for over a year till The Opportunist swooped in and released his “Breaking Expose!!”. (similar to his plagiarism con job on Mei Lai which was actually broken by a Vietnam Vet who also didnt get a cut of the millions or Pulitzer that Sy snagged.)

To his credit tho, after Hersh was asked about this in a public venue, he did later try to rectify the injustice by interviewing CPT's Cliff Kindi for the NYer.

Because Barack Obama has a nice smile.

Come on Obama-bots, let's see you defend the indefensible. Warmonger-in-chief gets the Nobel Prize for this bullshit. War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery right?

Obama needs to be in a jail cell next to Bush and Cheney.

Executions cut way down on the torture complaints and keep the cost of torture facilities at a minimum. Good economic policy — the Rethuglicans should be proud.

I have the guy’s name but it would be inappropriate to post it here.

LOL

We have become a country of passive, frightened individuals. As such we have allowed our politicians to move towards a state of perpetual war supported by the news networks, including cable, that try to keep us in a state of fear. We fear the Muslim, we fear those who do not speak English, we fear those that are not of western european descent, we fear those who do not recognize our moral superiority. We fear everything. Because we are so afraid we believe this justifies, bombing and killing innocent men, women and children. Because of our fear we have rationalized torture and long term detention. We are so afraid that we are willing to abandon our civil liberties.

We are so afraid we have allowed our jobs to be outsourced. We are so afraid that we allow major corporations to run roughshod over us. This country is into a deep, deep slide.

We are the new fascists. One day we will be brought to the bar to answer for our crimes

We have become a country of passive, frightened individuals. As such we have allowed our politicians to move towards a state of perpetual war supported by the news networks, including cable, that try to keep us in a state of fear. We fear the Muslim, we fear those who do not speak English, we fear those that are not of western european descent, we fear those who do not recognize our moral superiority. We fear everything. Because we are so afraid we believe this justifies, bombing and killing innocent men, women and children. Because of our fear we have rationalized torture and long term detention. We are so afraid that we are willing to abandon our civil liberties.

We are so afraid we have allowed our jobs to be outsourced. We are so afraid that we allow major corporations to run roughshod over us. This country is into a deep, deep slide.

We are the new fascists. One day we will be brought to the bar to answer for our crimes

of course you don't. you're a feckless cowardly bootlicker. keep drinking the kool aid.

of course you don't. you're a feckless cowardly bootlicker. keep drinking the kool aid.

seymour hersh has the pedestal and credibility to make a story big. That's what he did for that story. He also verified it through his sources.

LOLOLOL! No he won't.

Enjoy your gasoline and petroleum products, American people. While Europeans pay much more per gallon than you, your cost is hidden. It gushes from the bulletholes in bodies in the middle east. This tragic travesty taking place across the sea is part and parcel of US economy….

You said it yourself; the tale you tell is a story… Did you mention to the guy at the bar that you would be posting “the story” on web blog comment threads to phatten your impression of yourself? Now that would have been a story!

There will always be a hard core group of 25% of Democrats who support Obama no matter what, same as the 25% of hard core Republicans who support Bush and Cheney. So railing against Obama-bots makes about as much sense as railing against Bush-bots. Obama has caught a lot of flack from the left, especially when he won the Peace prize, whereas Bush caught none from the right. Nothing you've said is original, in fact, it's old hat. So at the risk of mixing metaphors, you're both preaching to the choir and barking up the wrong tree.

And with a complicit and very right wing corporate media America never sees war or the aftermath/remnants of anything the US military does.

America commits war crimes on a daily basis, that fact just can't be refuted

Recently attended a panel of 6 international experts on war crimes and torture. They all agreed that by protecting bush, obama may be liable for being an accessory to war crimes. The drones and articles like this make him liable regardless of him protecting bush.

At this point, I'm willing to believe that they're capable of anything. Welcome to the new Nazi Germany.

The MIC is in control of America, the oligarchy of the USA is nothing but an evil empire.

But what most Americans fail to understand is this empire will fail, it will crash and burn like every evil imperial empire has. America is number one in war spending, not much else.

You're correct, America as we know it, a fascist oligarchy, cannot be sustained. It will fail like all others in the past.

You can choose to believe it or not. Most of us when confronted with information that is dissonant to the narrative we've created chose to dismiss the information rather than change our narrative.

Conservatives do it every time. You maintain your traditional values because anything that doesn't conform is a threat, a lie, evil.

Why should I not convey this story? It is part of the dehumanization these wars have inflicted on the American psyche. This soldier came home with this burden. He told it to me it, in doing so it also became my burden.

The doctors who did this act will come home too. They will all be changed and diminished as human beings.

Your denial that such things could happen and do happen says much about you.

Exactly.
This situation, not prosecuting the very clear war crimes of the previous Regime, is a crime in itself. The UN Convention Against Torture requires all signatures to prosecute their own, we have not done so. Just one of many examples of why Obama is complicit in those crimes.

But what is so pathetic is how the corporate media has so many ignorant people brainwashed into the false narrative that Obama is a radical liberal when in fact he's just another Neocon.

The US Fourth Reich and its corporate and military volunteers continue to murder, destroy, and kill forever onward, spinning its web of death all over the third world. The US is now worse than Hitler's Third Reich and should be treated accordingly.

You are making a hyperbolic claim without anything to back it up.

If I heard the same thing you claim to have heard, then I would encourage whomever shared it with me to get to the bottom of it, and I sure as hell would find evidence to back it up, before I started writing it in a blog comment thread. Without evidence or substantiation or corroboration all you have is a story you claim to have heard in a bar. Now if Sy Hersh gets folks to say things along the line of what you state, then your story has merit, till then you need to STFU because you are only making things worse with your bar tales of grim, not better-

Amazing; I've been saying for months that Barack Obama is a war criminal and absolutely no better than Bush. In fact, though I am quite the lefty, I say Obama is worse than Bush since he's a f*cking liar; at least Bush did what he said he was going to do.

I'm still amazed that so many liberals and, especially people on this site, still regard this war criminal Obama as God. What the f*ck are you people seeing? My God, this guy is the biggest TROJAN HORSE into the American political system in history. When America is soon in the midst of the biggest REVOLUTION in HISTORY, don't ask me why…

There's simply no stopping the fact that Barack Obama is a criminal, like George Bush and Bill Clinton, and that he is responsible for the deaths of countless innocent individuals. He is nothing but a war criminal….and needs to be treated as one.

OK, WTF is rawstory doing with censorship?

Does the word filter kill comments that include…………. Winter Soldier.
Just what sort of moderators do you people employ? I see spam from that asshole sketchers everywhere, Dr. Matt running around telling people to F….off, only he spells it all out. They don't get censored.
Political content, stuff that talks openly about Obama war crimes seems to be subject to more and more scrutiny??

As bad as Obomber is, these things have done more damage to America and the world than Obomber has done yet, and can probably ever do:
1. FauxNews
2. Goldman Sachs
3. Reich-wing radio

Know the enemy…

Or a rope.

Obama is a f*cking punk; nothing more, nothing less. He sure ain't my president!

OBAMA THE WAR CRIMINAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Exactly. Better tell that fox someone is stealing chickens…

Anything that goes against your preconception is an Agent Provocateur.

I don't much care what you think. You're not in a position to keep me from saying what I think. So STFU.

Agree, but it’s Obomber’s war now… Did you hear the joke he made at the press dinner about drones? Sicko…

Resend it

I can't remember the last time I saw someone at this sight defend Obama. I've seen support for Health Care reform and Wall Street reform and MIC reform, you know, all the stuff that Obama pays lip service to … but I haven't seen any Obama-bots in a long time.

“Take a look at Afghan polls. The majority of Afghans actually want us there and want our help in rebuilding their economy and stopping the hugely unpopular Taliban”

That’s not true. Most don’t like the Taliban, but they like occupiers even less. That’s us. The polls are notoriously inaccurate. They want America to help rebuild (why wouldn’t they + who else is going to help?) but they do NOT want the American military. ‘Government in a box’ is a horrible lie. The US military are completely unreliable in anything they say.

rethinkafghanistan.org -watch the whole movie. free.

I am in a position to call you on your crap, and that is why you have strayed into “I know you are but what am I” typical for your type territory- Go crazy, and keep on spreading your story; I guarantee similar responses will great your eyes and ears- Until you can point to something credible along with what you would like the group to believe you heard in a bar…

“PrattVictory” is a screen name reference to a perceived victory over a gun law- And you fling conservative hyperbole at me; when you are the closeted scared of mean Mr Obama type- Peddle your crap elsewhere, or here, albeit your colours are clearerand clearer with each post you make…

If this is SOP, then it must be written down somewhere. Where can we find that document?
I suspect a LOT of people would be interested in seeing it.

It makes absolutely no difference at all — AT ALL — which party holds the White House when war crimes are committed… and our treaty obligations require that all credible accusations of torture be investigated and then, if warranted by the evidence, prosecuted. But Obama's “Look forward, not backward” gift to Cheney-Bush has walked him right into accessory-after-the-fact complicity in the Cheney-Bush-Addington-Yoo et al. torture conspiracy.

Whatever was adjudged “radical lawless extremism” under Cheney-Bush remains equally so under Obama.

I've been calling Obama's military madness just that from the get go, and when he said he would do exactly what he's doing in Afghanistan during the campaign I decided, along with many others, not to vote for him.
Livefreeordie lives in a tea bagger world, it's all balck and white, liberal/conservative.

There is no way to adequately respond to the depth of your naivety.  However, you are essentially saying that the arabs on those four planes were accompanied by government employees on suicide missions who flew each plane either into buildings or the ground.  Do you understand how crazy a person has got to be to believe this? 

________________________________

America is an empire in decline.And once an empire can not police its armies at distance the decline accelerates.Till it downfall is unstoppable .Next you will see the army operating in the homeland .And mercenaries will be indistinguishable from army personnel.

Percentages? Polls? Exactly where are all these blood-thirsty obots you people keep talking about?

You claim to be a lefty, but I don't believe it. A real lefty acknowledges that people can have nuanced beliefs, perhaps appreciating one facet of a politician's policy while detesting another facet of that same politician's policy. You people harp on one thing, over and over and over, saying that “the liberals” uniformly believe in their “messiah” and that every one who supports the tiniest little sliver of an Obama policy– even a domestic one– must be 100% behind the War Machine (which, btw, has existed for 60 years). That's just tiny-minded and insulting.

You people are not lefties. You people are extremist trolls, and serve only to sabotage the antiwar and other progressive ideals by trying to stoke internal strife. Maybe it's intentional, maybe it's not. But it's certainly not helpful.

The only people I detest more than mindless teabaggers are the mindless self-described “lefty” extremists who can't think clearly enough to understand the damage they do to otherwise good causes by alienating the very people who would be their allies. Idiocy.

Amazing how right wing anti Obama trolls quickly dominate the board. I feel the empire is wrong and Obama should not support it, but our President is way better than anything I can imagine and I support him.

Nope. To be against torture and murder is not extremist.

To excuse torture and murder simply because it is being committed by your guy is certainly extremist, to say the least.

You're the extremist by any sane standard. Sorry to have to tell you.

And Bush wasn't a liar ??? WTF! Yea..how soon you forget!

Seymour Hersh is a great journalistic conscience.However, I can only wonder that when you put advanced weapons in the hands of rational GIs, and put them in a country that hates them and trains their kids to kill them, and provides no US leadership except…”Let's see how it goes..”, and forces its (non psychologist) troops to try to re-program nationalistic fanatics who wholesale opium,…and who resist change….and who are forced to function in a 12th century religious culture who are desperately trying to expel them every day…I would imagine that a few bullets would seem the most efficient way to make life easier. Hersh knows very well exactly where the problem really is and always was and it isn't on the battlefield. Its easier to blame the troops, right? ……then you can avoid the Pentagon.

Hersh is telling the truth, he's been right on alot of stuff so far. The sick thing I hate about what we are doing is that one day we aren't going to be on top forever, and eventually someone or other groups will be number one. What do you think will happen when that day comes, you think it will be live and let live. No it will be payback and then some, we are making enemies and frenemies at a rate that will eventually destroy us if where not careful.

Well Scott, I'm saddened by the fact that you can't imagine anything better because this whole reality is being created by our imaginations. Quantum Mechanics proves our thoughts create reality so please, do us a favor and work on using that imagination a bit more creatively.

Take a baby step in the right direction and imagine a president that follows through on his campaign promises.

Otherwise all you support is more hypocrisy.

….”we were headed towards a war in Iran”….

That was my point you fuck head. Maybe it got derailed. Like I said the CIA,etc. are everywhere. I remember telling people we were going to fight another war in Iran.

Hell, there still is a 4 pound “plutonium” generator emitting bad levels of radiation for another 1,000 years in a “gulley”, down from India’s Nanda Devi. The CIA hired some doctors to set this up so they could spy on China. There is high levels of radiation in the vital Ganges River. Are we at war with China?

Killing civilians is SOP and that's not written down anywhere.

Who’s denying it? CIA and troops on the ground are two entirely different evils. Sy, reports like a modern day Studs Terkel. I guess you get to fill in the dots. I am waiting for soldiers to tell their stories on this.

Give me a name of who could do a better job and be elected in 2012. Tellin me to take a baby step- you r fos.

Didn't vote for fuck face Obama, and I wouldn't even it meant the Brown Hole Republicans take over. The man, as has been pointed out here, is a fucking LIAR and a WAR CRIMINAL like Bush.

.
POW EXECUTIONS: MSM COVERAGE, MIC OUTRAGE, WH DENIAL, U.S. IGNORES — ALL IN 1 WEEK
.

“America is a friend to the people of Iraq. Our demands are directed only at the regime that enslaves them and threatens us. When these demands are met, the first and greatest benefit will come to Iraqi men, women and children. “
George W. Bush

“America is a Nation with a mission – and that mission comes from our most basic beliefs. We have no desire to dominate, no ambitions of empire. Our aim is a democratic peace – a peace founded upon the dignity and rights of every man and woman.”
George W. Bush

Thank you for the beautiful demonstration of my point.

You've attacked me by stating that I support torture and all manner of despicable acts just because it was OK'ed by “my guy”– with no evidence, btw, of who “my guy” actually is.

You didn't bother to get a bead on my stances on torture or the war or civil liberties or healthcare or fiscal policy or any other issue in order to try to understand my position. You simply whipped out the ad hominem attacks– and smarmy ones at that, I sorry to have to tell you.

Your manner is a symptom of a greater disease in this society: that people have become ill-considered and impatient, and have completely jettisoned the ability– perhaps even the desire– to have constructive discussions with someone who has slightly different beliefs.

If you in particular are a mere troll, kudos, you're doing a bang up job.

But if you're a real progressive, then for the love of Progress, abandon the knee-jerk attacks on anyone who even remotely deviates from your sanctified worldview and make some effort to at least civilly engage your opponents (who really ought to be allies, btw). And yeah, that means growing a thick skin, clarifying confusing points, dropping the personal insults– even when met with the same.

Hate Obama all you want, but don't hate people who likely agree with you on 90% of the issues. Because that's just stupid. And extremist.

I happen to be one of the posters here that has disagreed with LFOD, though I respect his frustration.

My position is, I can't say for sure whether Obama has the option to countermand the established policy in the war-zone. IMO, suppose Ron Paul had been elected president, the most overt proclaimant of absolute stand-down of the whole empire (which I agree with, for what it's worth). I dare say he would be prevented from doing so. I'm guessing he would be prevented from even interfering with this horrendous practice described here by Sy Hersh, for whom let praises flow to whatever gods there be.

I posted a comment to a thread here three days ago, in a back & forth with squeekbat, (which I commend to your perusal) about a radio broadcast/podcast I link to there, of Four Arrows, co-author of American Assassination: The Strange Death of Senator Paul Wellstone with Jim Fetzer, and he mentioned that a friend of his who is also a friend of Barbara Boxer was told by the senator that

“Well, I've read his book American Assassination — and again, this was in a private conversation — Barbara and this person — and uh she shared with this person “well, he's a lot closer to the truth than maybe he really knows” or “could imagine”. And the other parts of the conversation that was shared with me had to do with the “warning to all of us, not to cross” — that there are “certain lines we do not cross”.

Anybody care to grapple with this issue? I wonder if, and hope that, Obama is gritting his teeth and laying for a haymaker when he has, hopefully, more political capital, to try to unwind some of this Empire disease which, as kiboshki says below, has been pedal to the metal for 60 years.

Our boys better be careful – their enemy dealt with captured Russians as follows:

Officers were skinned and staked out and allowed to live (kept alive) for a couple of days.

Grunts were just staked out and allowed to die.

Take heart, the familes will be spared the details: the remains were returned as un-viewable.

You're the one who said that people (you) can appreciate a “facet of a politician's policy while detesting another facet.” You're the one who said that people hinder “good causes by alienating the very people who would be their allies.”

It's all relative to you. It's okay to torture people if you… (trying to think of something good Obama has done…) oh, I know, if you give a good speech.

I think this would be a good time to look up “ad hominem.” You're the one using ad hominems, tagging people as extremists for telling the plain truth. Tagging people as trolls for standing up against insanity. How silly of you to project your shortcomings on me.

But I know I will keep telling the truth and you will keep calling people names. I can spot people like you a mile away.

of course the war crimes committed by the empire dont get reported, why, you ask?
because ronald raygun allowed the consolidation of media and we havent had a free press for
decades!!! now this fascist evil empire can do whatever the fuck it wants to keep the top
1/2 percent owning everything and getting richer all the time by completly eliminating the middle class. OBOMBER is bush in blackface, a phucking disgrace!!! put a fork in our
republic, its done!!!……………….oooops almost forgot:GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Mr. Hersh always has his facts, so I will take his word for it. And Obama has shown no obligation to investigate the former administration, not to take action against Bush' s policies. In fact he has been swallowed up my the military complex. He either does not know the questions to ask, or he prefers not to ask the questions. He has allowed all the policies of the Bush crime family to not only stand, but extended them.

When Gerald Ford did not pursue Nixon after his crimes it set the stage for succeeding Presidents to ignore the rule of law and the Constitution. Just as this President has. This means that the next crimes against the Constitution by a President will be ignored too. There is now no price to pay. Obama knows better then most just how fraught with peril such a lack of accountability is to a Democracy. One day he will be vilified in history for what he has failed to do.

The shame is his as well as ours. He is a good and intelligent man who has lost his compass. And unless he does a total turn around in these next years, he will not win the next election. I know I will not vote for him again.

I read the Asian Times Online daily, and they usually can refute most anything our media says. Particularly in the case of the Taliban and the NYC stupid bomber. not a thing has been said about these executions on the battle field.

On the other hand, Hersh is no slouch of a journalist. One that actually does research as opposed to sound bites.

[...] US troops executing prisoners in Afghanistan, journalist says | Raw Story [...]

I voted for Obama..but he is worse than Bush…He is smart enough to know better. I can't stand to look at him. Obama loves his own daughters but is complicit in the deaths and misery of thousands of children.

This is the possible motivation: http://www.criminalstate.com

It is 100% true, that NJATO soldiers are executing helpless, unarmed, men women and children right on the battle field. The blood begets blood, it will be another veitnam, the price may not be as heavy, as we are killing those who opposed Russia and they are not getting help from any where.

And not surprisingly you still haven't addressed the crux of the issue.

First off, note that my initial comments were not directed at you, but at LFoD, whom I have very good reason to believe is a troll (2 dozen user names, calls Obama “oreo”, etc). It is not easy to discern real people from false ones; unfortunately, it usually only becomes apparent when a discussion unfolds a few levels.

But yes, I stand by the argument of nuance. Believe it or not, there are people in this country (especially in this country) who have no idea just how horrible war is. Does that excuse the atrocities? Not in the least, but to be fair, to many of those people (for example) having a new craptastic health care plan that's half-a-step better than what they had a year ago may well be a huge deal for them, more important than the war. There is nothing wrong for appreciating that aspect of the administration's policy, while simultaneously being against the war. It's simply a question of priority: those people's priorities– for ill or good– are different than yours. Just deal with it; don't yell at them for it. There was a time (apparently now gone) when being “progressive” meant accepting people's differences in opinion and making some effort to understand eachother.

One of the defining characteristics of an extremist is that he doesn't accept that other people *gasp* have varying perceptions and experiences. Nor does he ever admit that attacking people like that– who likely DO agree with them 90% of the time– is perfectly counterproductive to the cause. All it does is rile up people who really ought to be on the same side and discussing constructively how to engage the real opponents in the debate: the people on the rightwing who really do want the wars to continue.

And that's precisely what I don't understand about certain irate so-called “lefty anti-war” voices here: why do they grow a pair spend so much time getting on my demonstrably peacenik case just because I I'm not willing to pin the wars exclusively on Obama alone? Wouldn't it make more sense to go pick fights on FOX Nation or someplace where there are people who disagree with you on truly fundamental philosophical levels, and might actually benefit from hearing your message?

So, yes, tell all the truth you want; I'll probably agree with you. But don't be surprised if I occasionally call you out for being a sanctimonious prick. Because, like it or not, you don't have sole claim to the moral high road. That's a road that needs to be shared, not fought over, or else none of us will ever get where we're ALL trying to go.

He has been anecdotally told ? He should have proof before he males such a damaging statement. Serving in the Military is hard enough without being accused of war crimes.

I don't think Obama's an accesory to war crimes. I think Obama is a war criminal. The drones joke probably made me more certain of it than anything. Only a stone cold killer can joke about killing like that.

I know Obama understood exactly what the US Constitution said and didn't say. He teaches Constitutional Law at the U-Chicago law school.

I'm certain Dubya never sat down and read the whole Constitution in one sitting. He probably learned most of it just from regular interaction with the subject matter.

I thought that as the furor rose over that so called joke, he would see the horror of it and apologize but expecting too much.

I read every word of this exchange between kiboshki and AC.

AC seems to be trying very hard to define progressive as someone who now draws clear lines in the sand over issues of torture, war crimes, battle field executions etc.
kibosh seems to be trying very hard to define progressive in very abstract terms like tolerance, civility, nuance, and understanding each others differences.

Sooner or later the abstract must confront the real. In the case of the USA now, we are in deep trouble. The progressives have been drummed out of the Democratic party. It is long past time when we need to demand practical steps from our politicians to move away from the war crimes of the dirtbag W Bush.
I see kiboshki bending over backwards to support Obama, but as he/she states above, it is not right to make assumptions about someones views. But since kiboshki is not on the record with any clear unequivocal opposition to Obama on torture, battle field exectutions, drone murders at his command, letting Bush and Cheney get away with torture crimes without prosectution etc. etc. it is difficult to know what he/she thinks.

It should be easy to condemn Obama for his drone murders, his crazy war escalation with record high civilian deaths in Af-Pak, and any number of Bush-y moves.
So step up and stop keeping us all in suspense kibosh, prove your progressive cred and do that. Surely your call for understanding does not extend to those who favor the use of torture and protect Bush and Cheney from torture prosecution……….that is not understanding that is acceptance of torture and murder.

Lastly I see you engaging in long winded exchanges with anyone who criticizes Obama, and often you are very concerned about tone, civility etc.
It would be great if you also showed such concern for the Obama crimes of torture, drone murder etc.

I read every word of this exchange between kiboshki and AC.

AC seems to be trying very hard to define progressive as someone who now draws clear lines in the sand over issues of torture, war crimes, battle field executions etc.
kibosh seems to be trying very hard to define progressive in very abstract terms like tolerance, civility, nuance, and understanding each others differences.

Sooner or later the abstract must confront the real. In the case of the USA now, we are in deep trouble. The progressives have been drummed out of the Democratic party. It is long past time when we need to demand practical steps from our politicians to move away from the war crimes of the dirtbag W Bush.
I see kiboshki bending over backwards to support Obama, but as he/she states above, it is not right to make assumptions about someones views. But since kiboshki is not on the record with any clear unequivocal opposition to Obama on torture, battle field exectutions, drone murders at his command, letting Bush and Cheney get away with torture crimes without prosectution etc. etc. it is difficult to know what he/she thinks.

It should be easy to condemn Obama for his drone murders, his crazy war escalation with record high civilian deaths in Af-Pak, and any number of Bush-y moves.
So step up and stop keeping us all in suspense kibosh, prove your progressive cred and do that. Surely your call for understanding does not extend to those who favor the use of torture and protect Bush and Cheney from torture prosecution……….that is not understanding that is acceptance of torture and murder.

Lastly I see you engaging in long winded exchanges with anyone who criticizes Obama, and often you are very concerned about tone, civility etc.
It would be great if you also showed such concern for the Obama crimes of torture, drone murder etc.

The US financial industry was about to lose rating and credibility due to the mortgage backed security fiasco. Now the US image is being drained of credibility due to murderous military and the torture in a chosen war based on lies. I wonder what kind of bailout there will be to restore US credibility as a shining beacon of justice?

I have tried to bust your chops on numerous occasions for being an Obama devotee.
Sorry for that.

I was loyal to Clinton for many more years than I should have been, ignoring his real crimes like Kosovo, financial deregulation etc. I fell for the big fake show where crazy right wing zealots attacked him over the Lewisnky tempest. It was all theater, but it tricked me into rallying round the Clintons by playing on my contempt for those bible thumping Repugs.

I now see Obama carry forward with all the Bush right wing madness, but with a media that continually hide his war crimes and ask us instead to focus on the evil right wing teabagers and to fight them. This time round I was not buying any of it. I have seen this movie too many times. It hurts to lose respect for a politician you once trusted. And worse, for an awakening Democrat, with the R option OFF the table, you begin to see how fubar ed this country really is.

Once enough people discard both political parties…………..the abyss, but at least it will be reality based and not this fake two party show.

Good luck carol. You might want to check these people out for inspiration.
http://www.gp.org/index.php

The Obama/Bush Criminal Conspiracy

Try 'em & Fry 'em

The Obama/Bush Criminal Conspiracy

Try 'em & Fry 'em

Agreed, that would be inappropriate. I’m actually much more interested in something “official” that suggests a policy that might corroborate such a story.

Understandably, such a thing would be unlikely to ever see the light of day without a leak. Nonetheless, it’s a frightening story, and I hope something comes of it in the future.

Technically I don't have to because I KNOW the Anthrax Attacks were warnings to Democrats and the news media from Rumsfeld and Cheney there are certain lines you don't cross. The tabloid and tabloid staffer that got the anthrax mailing had published some minor Bush family dirt. That was a very public execution of someone the Bush family loathed at the very beginning of all this.

I really loved Paul Wellstone to death, but there is a small fraction of the evidence regarding Sen. Wellstone that there is the Anthrax attacks and September 11th. You can do the math calculations that proves the twin towers were not destroyed by Jet A fuel at home.

Total heat energy that can possibly be produced by the total amount of Jet A fuel those two airliners can carry is a small fraction of the amount of heat that is necessary to raise the temperature of structural steel beams to the point they could be compromised enough to fail.

We really need to publish a “September 11th for Dummies” book. It's really that simple to prove airliners weren't the cause of the collapse of the Twin Towers.

I'm well aware of all that. I would recommend the 3 hour video of the San Francisco conference featuring Richard Gage of Architects & Engineers for 9/11Truth, Erik Lawyer of Firefighters for 9/11Truth, and master of ceremonies Peter B Collins, with other expert testimony. (Be warned — NoLiesRadio comes on loud automatically — LOL — there is a pause button on the far right side of the screen but if your screen is upsized be ready with the scrollbar!)

But those things are not a direct line of reasoning from the question of whether Obama is perhaps playing his cards close to the vest and would be bolder to close these torture sites &c if it were possible. Better to end a 60-year reign of terror over a 2, or 4, or 6 year period or even longer than to go for the one-year clampdown and die in office with the task unfinished.

American soldiers murdering helpless enemy prisoners is as old as American soldiers, and in all military's, as old as military's, and ongoing. That is the consequences of normally training soldiers to WANT to kill “enemies”, and training them to be racially, nationally, religiously or any-ly prejudice against politically decreed “enemies”, without substance in REASONING.

And if you think your military son, father, brother or other relative is not that repugnant, you are clueless of military training, and clueless of the rational obligation of any non-thug soldier witnessing said murders to file criminal charges against their colleague.

Enjoy the show you bought to show the world that the Americans are the currently most repugnant society on the planet, because they start the most number of wars, much to the amusement of the observers.

There is an available process to promptly win wars and effect peace with no remaining threat of “terrorism”, but it requires THINKING, a process that trained murderers (military dolts of all ranks) cannot comprehend.

DougBuchanan.com, previous US Army airborne ranger infantry sort, Vietnam veteran

For the record, I’m a “he”, and my comments are available for anyone to peruse, just as are yours and everyone else’s. And you will see I do criticize Obama, and that I am in fact anti-war, as well as anti- lots of other things, including anti-stupidity. What “credentials” do you need from me?

What I will say unequivocally is that I refuse to pin the atrocities of war solely on Obama. Yes, he owns it now. Yes, he’s covering for Bush/Cheney, almost certainly in order to cover himself. Yes, he’s failed to close Gitmo, and torture and renditioning. Yes, a thousand times yes. YES, I FUCKING AGREE WITH YOU, YOU DENSE BLOCKHEADS! And I’ve said as much. But what I condemn more than Obama is the war itself, which is much, much larger than one well-spoken egomaniac in the Oval Office. Now that I’ve seen his failures and how they jibe with the previous administration, I finally understand that the problem is way beyond Iraq and Afghanistan; the problem instead is something deeply social and multi-generational, ingrained in our economy, our media, and even our vocabulary. Obama, like Bush/Cheney before him are symptoms of an illness in this country that is much more virulent than you seem to be able to see, presumably because your focus is Obama rather than the war itself, and the greater nature of war in general. A lot of people hoped Obama would be different, but he isn’t, and I’m disappointed– but I don’t have the energy to expend on hatred of an impotent politician, when the real thing to hate is war itself and the ones who wield the real power.

Now back to my original point, which is still not addressed. While I think I do understand your position on the issues, I still don’t understand your attacks on people who largely agree with you. So, since we obviously talk past one another, here are a few explicit questions, and feel free to ask me things back– because I sincerely want to understand your approach.

(1) Why are you guys so aggressive? What exactly does that accomplish? I understand some are trolls, but others are merely aggressive or dense or misunderstood–all common problems on the internet, and easy enough to overlook.

(2) Why attack people who largely agree with you on the issue, but perhaps aren’t as adamant? Wouldn’t your energies be better spent shouting down rightwingers whose minds, if changed, would benefit your cause, rather than folks whose minds, if changed, would harm it?

(3)Why abandon civility? I’ve tusseled with you before, hb, and actually stopped myself from responding to your posts on numerous occasions. Why? Because at a minimum, civility is (usually) appreciated. I’ve managed to have a handful of civil conversations with others, even if the only outcome was to “agree to disagree”. So what am I doing wrong when I converse with you, or AC, or any other the others in your camp?

Three questions on tactics, not issues. I am honestly asking you to take a shot at explaining what I don’t understand.

I couldn't agree more. Smarter than Bush, to be sure, but therein lies the problem. That gives him greater culpability. Obama is a disaster, a war criminal, and I think your “Trojan Horse” analogy is particularly apt. So know that while I may not always reply to your assertion, I post the same thing frequently and it is often met with deafening silence. Well, I do get the occasional TeaBagger who thinks that that proves them correct all along. *sigh*

And when it comes to being “Left” and “liberal”, I know I'd give you a run for your money.

What is so very sad is that the Right is populated by utter lunatics. They are of the type that like the President in Stephen King's, “The Dead Zone”, would praise God that the “missiles are flying”.

And for these reasons, there is NO hope for the survival of this Nation. She is forever done. The “grand experiment” is over. We have been set to war against one another by the “powers that be”, and they will forever keep us so like a dark comic tragedy. They will never let the TeaBaggers or GOP gain full power as they are too destructive and even the world would set about to destroy the United States before too long should they gain power. But neither will they permit those to rise to power who actually do care about governing in a manner that would improve the lives of all.

America is a tragedy, a disaster, and D.O.A.

How can we go on about our ” everyday life” when all this horror goes on in “our name”?

1. Hersch, Last I read him, had iminent attack upon Iran.
2. shooting enemy prisoners hardly new thing in wartime…
3. all that anti-Obama, anti-Clinton, anti-Bush etc etc and I can but ask
What Is to be Done? fight the just battle with the computer keyboard?

I think our nations leaders know what they are doing. They are protecting America from those who wish us ill. We are not ill. Not yet. Our brave young men, women and flying drones are protecting us from the many villagers of this world who seek the destruction of our way of life, our values and everything we hold dear.

Barak Obama is doing everything he can to protect America. And if Seymour Hersh reports that American troops are killing people who they believe are not Taliban, then there's a reason for that. People who are not Taliban aren't necessarily our friends. We don't have time to send investigative journalist out there to investigate if someone is a Taliban or not a Taliban. Hundreds of people could be killed in Times Square, on Bourbon Street, on Las Vegas Blvd or in our nation's capital if we were too careful about the alleged rights of people who threaten our very life our way of existence.

America is the greatest nation in the history of the world with the most powerful military that has ever roamed the Earth, and roam they do…protecting us, and our children and our children's children from terrorists who want to impose their beliefs on us. If killing them saves us, then we must kill as many of them as we can.

WRONG.

OBAMA has the irrevocable power to RESIGN his public office in protest. This would send a POWERFUL MESSAGE to the public that something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with the United States. RESIGNING his post would DELEGITIMIZE THE REGIME.

OBAMA CHOOSES to stay in power because he WANTS to be there. There is no excuse for this behavior.

NO ONE can take away your power to say “no.” At the very least you can make people force you to do things, and if they are forcing you to do something they must expend resources and effort to do so. There is not enough effort and not enough resources in the world to control everyone. That’s ALL people need to do in order to WIN. SIMPLY REFUSE TO COOPERATE!

Feel free to submit videos and documentaries related to this subject to CAMBOFEST: Film and Video Festival of Cambodia (http://www.cambofest.com),

Sure you're not just writing this as some apologist stooge for war criminals? Let me check your post again… Yup. You're some filthy stooge apologist for war criminals.

take your pills bro

CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN!

What is done is you refuse to legitimize the regime. Refuse to vote. Refuse to pay attention to the Federal Government. Only pay them the taxes and fees you owe and nothing more. Do not contribute to or volunteer for political candidates (unless perhaps they are anti-government, pro-liberty types). Do not support, aid, or comfort the regime in any capacity that you are not forced to.

Tell your friends and family members to do the same. Learn to live without government assistance so that you don’t have to care about its existence anymore. Spread the cause of liberty and personal responsibility. That way when the government goes bankrupt (you won’t have to wait much longer) you will be able to survive and teach others how to survive as well.

Stay informed at:

bastiat.org
mises.org
lewrockwell.com

There are times this does not work. This is waaay past forming alliances, tactical moves. It is all too far gone. The evidence is all around us — the mindless wastefull spending on imperial ambitions are killing the economy. Only the financial sharks can swim in these polluted political waters. Obama is not doing what he was elected to do. His tactical “victories” are waste of time. He is powerless, for whatever reason.

It is time to stop worrying who is “bad” or “good” politician. The time has come to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So this is the cost of freedom?
Why don't we just let the Taliban try to come on over, then we can get em' because just shooting at will seems kinda- Brutal.

[...] speaking at the Global Investigative Journalism Conference in Geneva, Hersh had the following to say… “What they’ve done in the field now is, they tell the troops, you have to [...]

Even though the U.S. is not a signatory to the ICC, a first step would be for the Hague to formally indict Dubya, et al. This would get someone's attention.

http://www.bushtothehague.org/about/

Hmmm. I don’t see Obama as bad as Bush Jr. Nor as bad as Reagan or Bush 1 for the country either. He’s not what I expected, nor what I had hoped for, but McCain/Palin?
Get real. Seems like Clinton was the best of the bunch, and he was no prize.

American Democracy means you get to vote for a President who is Pro-Business, or Criminally Pro-Business. This can affect domestic policies some 10% to 20% one way or the other.

As for Foreign Policy, a candidate like Rep. Kucinich will never get close to major party nomination – the System would never allow it. It would be easier to convince clueless Americans to nuke Canada, because they are an “existential threat”, than to convince them the American Empire is evil and not worth the cost to most Americans.

I certainly agree: the problems are huge, and have been festering for decades. But alliances are necessary, discourse is needed, planning and leadership have to be put into place. Otherwise we'll just get more of the same.

I'm more than ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater. But let's also make sure we've got a new baby and new bathwater to replace it.

yes sir those that cover up the crimes are just as guilty in my book

Don't you think that the way to avoid more incidents is to bring our troops home immediately and Commander in Chief has that authority.

SOMEONES are pushing USA and NATO to execute prisoners, in order to show DECISION MAKERS “one day” – Hay we were not alone, you did it too…!
The world is reviewing history of what governments did to peoples, some people were able to get compensation such as Jews, others are waiting for their turn! But facts remain facts!
After world war II; hundreds of Egyptian prisoners of war were executed “massacred” by IDF “Israel Defense Force” during the six day war 1967, here's an account of what happened:

Why sink the ship?

What we know for sure is, as the independent commission headed by former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Thomas Moorer put it, the attack “was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew.”

What we do not know for sure is why the Israelis wanted that done. Has no one dared ask the Israelis?

One view is that the Israelis did not want the United States to find out they were massing troops to seize the Golan Heights from Syria and wanted to deprive the U.S. of the opportunity to argue against such a move.

James Bamford offers an alternative view in his excellent book, Body of Secrets. Bamford adduces evidence, including reporting from an Israeli journalist eyewitness and an Israeli military historian, of wholesale killing of Egyptian prisoners of war at the coastal town of El Arish in the Sinai. The Liberty was patrolling directly opposite El Arish in international waters but within easy range to pick up intelligence on what was going on there. And the Israelis were well aware of that.

But the important thing here is not to confuse what we know (the deliberate nature of the Israeli attack) with the ultimate purpose behind it, which remains open to speculation.

Also worth noting is the conventional wisdom prevalent in our Fawning Corporate Media (FCM) that Egypt forced Israel into war in June 1967. An excellent, authoritative source has debunked that — none other than former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin! In an unguarded moment in 1982, when he was prime minister, he admitted publicly:

“In June 1967, we had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that [Egyptian President] Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”

Thus, the Israeli attack admittedly amounted to starting a war of aggression, and the occupied West Bank territories and the Golan Heights — gained by the Israelis in the 1967 war — remain occupied to this day. “from: http://www.viewzone.com/liberty.html“

”
My position is, I can’t say for sure whether Obama has the option to countermand the established policy in the war-zone”

Obama is commander in chief of the armed forces. He has absolute, unreviewable authority to issue such an order. ‘Political Capital’ isn’t part of the equation when it comes to a president’s authority over the conduct of US troops.

in sum: be like a good p[ercentage of your countrymen: don’t give a rap about anaything. pay no attention. stick your head in the sand. but pay taxes…you live with govt assistance in everything you do!
got bank account? insured by govt. Ride on highways? paid in large part by govt? go to college? funded in part by govt.
read up and you will see that Lew is your leader but leading you nowhere.
Me? I take part…love all things. develop an inner life instead.

I appreciate your point of view. The effect of such a move is difficult to predict. It could be rather easily argued that it would fizzle, and any chance at progress in reversing the course of catastrophe from especially the last admin would be lost. Your recommended course of action would fit well in a movie, but only deo ex machina, i.e., another movie could easily present a scenario where it turns out to be a wasted and frivolous gesture, quickly washed away like love letters in the sand.

Obama isn`t “looking the other way”. He is staring right at it with a pompous, arrogant, knowing smile. Stop worshipping these luciferians, or perish. PS. Before I get attacked for being a bible-thumping christian I would like to add that I am an atheist. However Obama, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Geitner, Bernanke, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld and all these other criminals are collectivist devil-worshippers (even thought the devil does not exist evil does) who sees you as a mean to their ends (NWO).

Scientists at Rolls Royce built a gun specifically to launch dead chickens at the windshields of airliners and military jets all travelling at maximum velocity. The idea was to simulate the frequent incidents of collisions with airborne fowl to test the strength of the windshields.
American engineers heard about the gun and were eager to test it on the windshields of their new high speed trains. Arrangements were made, and a gun was sent to the American engineers. When the gun was fired, the engineers stood shocked as the chicken hurled out of the barrel, crashed into the shatterproof shield, smashed it to smithereens, blasted through the control console, snapped the engineer's back-rest in two and embedded itself in the back wall of the cabin like an arrow shot from a bow..
The horrified engineers sent Rolls Royce the disastrous results of the experiment, along with the designs of the windshield and begged the British scientists for suggestions.
Rolls Royce responded with a one-line memo:
Defrost the chicken..
http://www.christianlouboutinshoessale.org/chri…
http://www.skechersshape-upsshoes.com/mbt-chapa…
http://www.uggbootsonlinesales.com/sunglasses-s…

I`d also like to add that I am aware that my post looks pretty insane. Start researching and you will become equally insane :)

The issue is “a lasting change”. Jimmy Carter put solar panels on the White House roof, and declared, “I am tonight setting a cleah goal for the energy policy of the United States. Beginning this moment, this nation will nevah use more foreign oil than we did in 1977 — nevah.”

CIA man Poppy Bush and CIA man Bill Casey made deals with the ayatollahs that if the hostages were retained until Reagan took the oath, all the Shah’s old fighter jets could get spare parts, and lots of other ammo too. The grain ship SS Poet was dispatched as a down payment with one hold welded shut. That hold was never inspected. After Carter’s defeat, Reagan’s first act was to remove the solar panels. He then subsequently supplied the ayatollahs with beaucoup arms out of your taxes to make a healthy profit enough to supply the Contras to overthrow the effort by the Sandanistas to raise their people out of forced poverty — forced by the Dulles Bros old favorite United Fruit, by this time called Chiquita. Are you still buying bananas from these people? I stopped a year ago, as much as I love bananas.

The point is, hystrionics aside, the Church and Pike Committee hearings made more lasting damage to the Empire by unveiling secrets, which can now never be re-hidden, than Carter’s feckless promise of oil sanity, by a factor of scores or a hundred.

An accessory to war crimes by protecting Bush? Get your head out of the sand, you lemming. There’s not a crime Bush committed that Obama hasn’t also committed himself since he’s been president.

I’d like to know about the conference. But regardless, I don’t know how your depiction of agreement could be false. The logic is simple. Obama hasn’t executed justice. He simply hasn’t, and he willfully hasn’t. He actively refuses to do so. He joined the club of politicians too powerful to be prosecuted. He’s now one of them.

Guess all us antiwar Ron Paul supporters don't look so crazy now for calling Obama more of the same.

[...]  Send us your feedback!  jQuery(document).ready(function(){ jQuery('#feedback_form .radiobutton').one('click', function(){ jQuery(this).parents("#feedback_form").find(".text_and_submit").show(); jQuery(this).parents("#feedback_form").find("#feedback_text").focus(); }); jQuery('textarea.reason').live('keypress', function(e){ jQuery(this).removeClass('untouched'); }); jQuery('.btn_sendfeedback').click(function(event){ event.preventDefault(); var jele = jQuery(this); var jform = jQuery(this).parents('form'); var jparent = jQuery(this).parents('.feedback-calltoaction'); var textarea = jform.find('textarea'); //if (textarea.hasClass('untouched')) { // jQuery('.feedback_prompt', jparent).show().highlight(); // return textarea.focus(); //} var msg = textarea.val().replace(/(n|^s+|s+$)/gi, ''); if(jform.find('input:checked').size() < 1 && jform.find('input').size() > 1) return jparent.find('.oops').html('Please tell us how you found Mr. Tweet by rating us!').show(); if(msg.match(/^(Why do you think so? What would you like to see more (or less) of?)?$/gi)) return jparent.find('.oops').html('Please provide more details – much appreciated!').show(); jQuery.post('/feedback', { authenticity_token: jQuery("input[name='authenticity_token']").val(), rating: jform.find('input:checked').val(), text: jform.find('textarea').val(), username: jele.attr('rel'), group: jele.attr('group_id') }, function(data){ jparent.html('Thank you- We promise to read everything you send us!'); setTimeout(function(){ jparent.slideUp('slow'); }, 3000); }); }); }); /*body * { margin:0 !important; padding:0 !important; }*/ .feedback_prompt { background-color: #E3E9C0; display: none; } 3 Tweets US troops executing prisoners in Afghanistan, journalist says | Raw Story [...]

How about refusing to pay income taxes? Refusing to file the tax return? Hmmm…

It’s the other way around. Bush was Obama-lite.

God, I wish this was true. But it's not.

Yes, I agree. Lets draw the line at San Francisco..If the City Council will let us defend them.

There is no need for either war. There is a need to review foreign policy and to weed out corruption so that there’s no profiteering in war or benefit to the corporate plutocracy.

Point 2 is like saying ‘well of course murderers murder’ — it’s still a crime. Of course the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. It’s how things have always been. That doesn’t make it anything other than unacceptable.

OK, I have read a lot of the commentary taking place here and see a need for one thing, something that unites us in a planned course of action: I am going to put in my 2 cents here and say it should be TRANSPARENCY. Most importantly transparency of the federal reserve. This would have the greatest effect of restoring sound government of anything we could do (I believe). It is the queen bee in the hive of lies. We have a chance to put legislation back into the Dodd bill that will lay everything bare but it is like flying an x-wing fighter in close to hit that trigger point that destroys death star! The odds are stacked against us. Why did the 62 senators who failed to vote yes for the amendment to provide a much higher level of transparency do so? That reason is the weak link in this house of cards.
I would not mind debating people (rep,dem,soc,lib,etc) if it was done so on the basis of sound money. An issues legitimacy would be so much clearer.

They execute government officials too, that is why Washington is afraid of them.

They execute government officials too, that is why Washington is afraid of them.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. “constitutional” law is nothing more than a bunch of recitations of Supreme court rulings, which is at best nothing more than the personal interpretations of the justices and courts. “Constitutional” law has almost nothing to do with the philosophy and understanding of the constitution in its original intent and has more to do with understanding what politicians have perverted it to mean.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that. “constitutional” law is nothing more than a bunch of recitations of Supreme court rulings, which is at best nothing more than the personal interpretations of the justices and courts. “Constitutional” law has almost nothing to do with the philosophy and understanding of the constitution in its original intent and has more to do with understanding what politicians have perverted it to mean.

Done. http://www.losthorizons.com

Done. http://www.losthorizons.com

Thanks for replying.

1. Your question about why ” you guys (I will only speak for myself) are so aggressive” is based on the assumption that this is always the case. It is not. I often make kind respectful comments to others, compliment them or offer links to sites working for peace. So as to why am I “sometimes so aggressive” that is a fair question. I often get swarmed by packs of trolls who say vicious things, far worse than I do, and one makes a choice between fighting back or rolling over.

2 Why attack people? This is basically a repetition of your first question. But as for convincing right wingers, I agree with you. When Bush ruled I frequented several sites run by his devotees and called BS on everything he did. The response from Republican trolls was remarkably similar to that of the current Obama defenders, attacks, slander, getting people off topic, etc.

3 Why abandon civility? Again, much the same as your first question, you are projecting and attempting to suggest I do this all the time. I do not. When I avoid civility it is in response to disingenuous trolls who attack me for holding Obama to the same standard that we all rightly applied to Bush the war pig. I was not civil with war lovers who bowed down to Bush, and I am not civil to war lovers who claim to back Obama.

I just reread your comment and it appears on second reading that you really glossed over the litany of Obama war crimes, admitted to a few atrocities and yelled in caps calling us blockheads. Drone murder, assassination of Americans, battle field executions, ugly stuff.
It really pains you to face up to his war crimes. Good, it shows you have a conscience and a soul, but your inability to even type out his actual crimes shows a tendency to avoid rather than confront. To confront the Obama war crimes is an emotional experience, it should be. We should all recoil in horror at his murderous rampage, his Bush3 act.
Check out this video, and feel some pain, some rage and some desire to change things…..PS I do activism in my community and am always polite and friendly. Let this video inspire you to do more to stop Bushbama.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/52176

Now to what I see as your main point………..why waste time and energy trying to convince Obama voters that their man is Bush3, when Obama is only a symptom?

Because this ‘symptom’ is only propped up by the people who support him, and believe that he is a man of peace. If the remaining Obama supporters wake up and see him for what he is, Bush3, maybe just maybe, there can be some sort of peaceful takedown of our government, D’s and R’s. Without a peaceful revolution this country is finished, dead.
The longer people cling to the false and dangerous notion that Obama is trying to undo the Bush doctrine, we are slaves to tyranny and fascism.

Thanks for replying.

1. Your question about why ” you guys (I will only speak for myself) are so aggressive” is based on the assumption that this is always the case. It is not. I often make kind respectful comments to others, compliment them or offer links to sites working for peace. So as to why am I “sometimes so aggressive” that is a fair question. I often get swarmed by packs of trolls who say vicious things, far worse than I do, and one makes a choice between fighting back or rolling over.

2 Why attack people? This is basically a repetition of your first question. But as for convincing right wingers, I agree with you. When Bush ruled I frequented several sites run by his devotees and called BS on everything he did. The response from Republican trolls was remarkably similar to that of the current Obama defenders, attacks, slander, getting people off topic, etc.

3 Why abandon civility? Again, much the same as your first question, you are projecting and attempting to suggest I do this all the time. I do not. When I avoid civility it is in response to disingenuous trolls who attack me for holding Obama to the same standard that we all rightly applied to Bush the war pig. I was not civil with war lovers who bowed down to Bush, and I am not civil to war lovers who claim to back Obama.

I just reread your comment and it appears on second reading that you really glossed over the litany of Obama war crimes, admitted to a few atrocities and yelled in caps calling us blockheads. Drone murder, assassination of Americans, battle field executions, ugly stuff.
It really pains you to face up to his war crimes. Good, it shows you have a conscience and a soul, but your inability to even type out his actual crimes shows a tendency to avoid rather than confront. To confront the Obama war crimes is an emotional experience, it should be. We should all recoil in horror at his murderous rampage, his Bush3 act.
Check out this video, and feel some pain, some rage and some desire to change things…..PS I do activism in my community and am always polite and friendly. Let this video inspire you to do more to stop Bushbama.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/52176

Now to what I see as your main point………..why waste time and energy trying to convince Obama voters that their man is Bush3, when Obama is only a symptom?

Because this ‘symptom’ is only propped up by the people who support him, and believe that he is a man of peace. If the remaining Obama supporters wake up and see him for what he is, Bush3, maybe just maybe, there can be some sort of peaceful takedown of our government, D’s and R’s. Without a peaceful revolution this country is finished, dead.
The longer people cling to the false and dangerous notion that Obama is trying to undo the Bush doctrine, we are slaves to tyranny and fascism.

What Hersh is suggesting, and I think it's true, is that there's no reason to adhere to the myth that the US has some special policy that protects human respect and dignity, that we're just like any other brutal empire. We view life as cheap and always expendable. In the Afghanistan theatre, we simply discard bodies that we find to be of no use to our military means. They mean nothing to us. WE, the civilians, as well as the military, have to take responsibility for these murders. That's what they are. Murders.

What kind of bailout? If there aren't trials for war crimes, there won't be a bailout.

You ask why the aggressive stance? Because civility and proper discourse has only succeeded in herding us down the path chosen for us. The whole time this discussion had a determined conclusion and 50 years of anti-war protesting brought us exactly to same point had there been no anti-war opposition whatsoever. If not now, at what point do you suggest we decide enough is enough, then? It is probably already too late to change course in all honesty, so maybe you are right that all the anger is misplaced. Ignoring them will not solve the problem, participating does not matter. The anger is a perfectly understandable result of the frustration.

You ask why the aggressive stance? Because civility and proper discourse has only succeeded in herding us down the path chosen for us. The whole time this discussion had a determined conclusion and 50 years of anti-war protesting brought us exactly to same point had there been no anti-war opposition whatsoever. If not now, at what point do you suggest we decide enough is enough, then? It is probably already too late to change course in all honesty, so maybe you are right that all the anger is misplaced. Ignoring them will not solve the problem, participating does not matter. The anger is a perfectly understandable result of the frustration.

Obama can employ rhetoric that soothes our troubled minds over the loss of real wealth and now, the loss or our moral compass. He's a brilliant rhetorician with the policies of a neo-con. For all of their vitriol, the corporatists and neo-cons have to love him.

,”’╭⌒╮⌒╮.’,”’,,’,.”,,’,”,.
╱◥██◣”o’,”’,,’,.”.”,,’,.
｜田｜田田│ ”,,’,.’,”’,,’,.”
╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬╬
>>>——I love you! —->
Spread the cause of liberty and personal responsibility. That way when the government goes bankrupt (you won't have to wait much longer) you will be able to survive and teach others how to survive as well.

Never frown, even when you are sad, because you never know who is falling in love with your smile.

Despite all the life danger, with one selfless act from one common person, someone is saved, A hero is made.

welcome to my stores:
http://www.guccionlineshop.org/gucci-sunglasses…

http://www.skecherssale.org/christian-louboutin…

http://mbt.shoemkt.com/mbt-chapa-shoes-c-1112.html

It sounds like the point you were trying to make was that Sy was wrong about Iran.
You were criticizing Sy Hersh, why be such a gutless coward about admitting to it
Hersh is a great man, and you are a putz.

It sounds like the point you were trying to make was that Sy was wrong about Iran.
You were criticizing Sy Hersh, why be such a gutless coward about admitting to it
Hersh is a great man, and you are a putz.

I think you're missing the point. There is no name. The longer you're alive, the more history you learn and see. In so doing I've come to understand this statement to be true: no matter who you vote for the government gets in. Had McCain won, I absolutely believe, we'd be in the exact same place having the exact same conversation.

What I was eluding to was the fact that looking for any of them to do a better job is a waste of our energy and shows we're still combing the mirror.

The system is so obviously corrupt how can we possibly take it seriously? Our current story is playing out like a bad soap opera and passes for real in the same manner as WWE wrestling story lines.

Go ahead and get all juiced up for a 2012 election cycle while they dismantle America today right under your nose. Hmmm, which will I choose, this prick or that one?

To those who would throw out a name I say, throw out the scarcity system and really let freedom ring!

note;thairs more nthan one dragon flapper “out thair,please don’t confuse,

note;thairs more nthan one dragon flapper “out thair,please don’t confuse,

You know what’s funny is I think Bob Gates agrees but the people in charge aren’t the people in charge they are nothing but puppets.

You know what’s funny is I think Bob Gates agrees but the people in charge aren’t the people in charge they are nothing but puppets.

Yes he does…and those replies are typically of the “You’re a NEOCON and/or racist” variety…and it doesn’t matter if you are a black libertarian, he still uses them with impunity…as if he knows something about you that you don’t. He doesn’t seem to see his own insulting nature since his reflection in the mirror shows a dolt wearing a blue t-shirt with TOBO written on it…

Satire? We can only hope, for your sake…

Satire? We can only hope, for your sake…

.
BRAVE BOYS SPREADING LIBERTY FROM A NATION OF LAWS CAREFUL TO OUTSOURCE MURDER
.

so it's a M.I.A. music video over there.. people acted disgusted by that , plus youtube banned even though it's fiction and the real thing is happening over there.

UMMMM…TRY “NONE OF THE ABOVE”. Nader Baldwin and McKinney were on your ballot…but nooooooooo…you didn’t want to “waste” your vote. Now look where we are…right back in the same place with even more problems piling on…

Excellent and spot-on reply.

You don’t “see” it because you may possibly have an issue accepting responsibility for your actions. Baldwin, Nader and McKinney were on the ballot…but nooooo…you didn’t want to “waste” your vote did you? Instead you helped present us with this asshole…thanks a lot for that….

And don’t fool yourself, Bush may have had an extra large protruding blood vcessel that Obama isn’t currently displaying …but they are both assholes, replete with the same smells and abilities.

Hmmmm. Given the dissertation above, I was wondering if YOU would like to take a stab at defining EXACTLY what a progressive is. It has such a nice “sing-song” sound to it but, reality and ideology often divirge. So, what does a “progressive” look like, and what does he believe?

Is he pro- or anti-war? Is he pro or anti drug war? Is he pro or anti FED? Does he wanrt more involvment of the government in his life…or less? Does he like, or dislike the two party system and upon which side does he vote?

I’m totally with ya Hurly…

We still need somebody who will gather trusted guards about him, and step up to the bully pulpit with the finger pointing at the very people who took him into the basement on 1/20 only to inform him that he really has no power and must obey…of course, whilst a recording of the Zapruder Film plays on the wall in the background.

We need someone with balls…

LOL, you come here to chastise people for being “gullible” for not beliving the official conspiracy theory? Too funny.

Don’t look now but your 15 minutes a day on the internet is just about up and Dancing With the Stars is about to begin….

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Sorry that the questions were so similar, but you provided enlightening answers. And I apologize for throwing out blanket labels such as “aggressive”. I stand corrected.

I’ll do see that we are mostly on the same page here, as I suspected. I’ll admit, I still half-way want to see something– foreign or domestic– turn out for the better with this administration, though I’m also quite certain that won’t happen. I won’t shed a tear whether or not he’s tried for warcrimes. What truly bothers me is that the real powers behind those war crimes– and all the other crimes committed on the citizenry– will go unpunished.

If that makes me an Obama “supporter” so be it. But I’m not a “war lover” just because I acknowledge that some people appreciate, frex, a better-than-nothing healthcare bill. And I really don’t think it’s fair to label those people “war lovers”, either. But, again, so be it.

Thanks for the link. Fwiw, I’ve spent a lot of time in the middle east and elsewhere talking to people of all stripes with all kinds of reasons to love or hate America, both as a people and and as a policy; and I’ve heard the horror stories and seen the arm stumps. Even second-hand or third-hand, I know that war is utterly despicable and horrifying, regardless of who the war criminals are. So please forgive me for glossing over things I simply don’t feel right talking about for lack of direct experience.

Anyway, I now understand you have your reasons, and I hope you can understand that I have mine. Presumably, others have their reasons as well. Again, I appreciate your candid responses. Next time I’m at a teabagger rally getting shouted down for suggesting cuts in the war budget (oops, I mean “defense” budget), I’ll keep my cool knowing you and others are out there dealing with the same crap that I am.

The Pentagon broke the Abu Ghraib story. The put it in a press release months before the press decided it was worth reporting.

What if he is implying that a CABAL consisting of very highly placed people within the government and the military affected the stand-down of Norad, the head-turning of other defense related structures, and even the installation of exlosives in three skyscrapers in New York…all aided by very powerful interests from other countries that all like to party together and masturbate over their hegemony over the world…does that help you accept anything besides the Official Conspiracy Theory? It ain’t an “either – or” thin…government or cave dwellers…it is much more simply complex.

This blood soaked empire has been raping and pillaging a lot longer than 60 years. Ask Four arrows.

IMHO, a progressive recognizes that societal good is a valid thing to strive for, not at the expense of the individual, but to elevate the individual.

To answer your questions, this progressive:
- is anti-war in all its forms;
- is pro-legalization of soft drugs,decriminalization of hard drugs;
- is undecided about the Fed, because he admits he doesn’t fully understand it. But he’s working on it.
- is for “right” government, that benefits the people not the corporations. That means things like overhauling patents, single-payer healthcare, rational defense spending
- hates the two-party system, and typically votes for the left-most non-D or R party on the ticket just to get their voting numbers up in a district that skews extremely heavily Republican. That usually means Green if it’s a choice, but in Texas, third party (or even second party if Dems are unrepresented) is usually Libertarian. If there is no third party, he votes based on the candidate, usually siding with the Dems.

Any other probing questions? I’m happy to write another dissertation, though according to the classic work “How to Spot a Communist” that probably makes me an enemy of America. Be careful, might not want to be seen talking to me…

Taking the gloves off and going on the dark side I suppose. Be careful what happens there could start becoming secret policy here. Preemptive enforcement of those that aren't liked and reasons as reasonable as for the invasion of Iraq. As for singing bomb bomb Iran, it is probably on the to do list of the bipartisen national strategic interest party…
A bankrupt country financially and morally may be on the to be list…

That’s a really good point: if you know where the money’s at, everyone has to play it straight. The thing that absolutely scares the hell out of me? What happens if a Fed audit gives a “bad” result, whatever that means. Like a really, really bad result. What does that do to the economy, not just ours, but the entire world’s? What does it do to obvious things like trade deficits, wages and property valuations? What does it do to more fundamental things like the concept of “ownership” or fair pay?

I really need to learn more about the Fed issue; so many things seem to come back round to it. Time for a little homework.

(Bonus points for the Star Wars reference ;)

Given everything you just pointed to as “progressive”…I’d say you were a dyed in the wool Libertarian with some levels of disagreement with the Full Libertarian Monty…mostly becasue you don’t understand the issue. I ridden that horse often over the last few years but I am now pretty well informed on the Libertarian idealogy and find little to disagree with.

Welcome.

The reason I asked you this is because most of these stances are not “progressive” (as in Teddy Rooseveldt) in the least and are instead corpo-protectionist in affect. While many would see the Progressives as some force standing in opposition to the corporations…nothing could be further from the truth…no big surpise there…kinda like “Republicans” supposedly being for “individual” rights and smaller government (the meme) when in actuality the agenda is quite differrent.

It’s also like those here that call NEOCONS the “right-wing”. In actuaslity, Libertarianism is truly the far right and NEOCONS are anything but conservative. WE’ve had a semantyic blur come over political labels to the point that so much is obscured that it becomes difficult to know exactly WHAT you really are.

I meast to say that your positions are anti-corpo-protectionist…in opposition to what the “progressives” have actuasly stood for rather than just listening to the lip-service of “progressives”.

Hey hurlyburly,

I was never an Obama devotee. Simply a hopeful person. I still am, although it is getting more difficult. Obama is a pragmatist first and foremost. And he was given a huge mess, as you know. Bush made the mess and then walked away from it. It was and is an unimaginable mess.

I wanted the Bush crime family to be pursued through the courts, and this is what I fault Obama for most. And for extending all that was bad that Bush did. I still hope. And it is not easy. I am a cynical person at war with this tiny bit of hope left. I am not a glass half full person. But what the hell? I have spent the last decade in anger especially at Bush. But I still cling to hope. I cannot yet give it up.

If he implies that which you have just stated, he is beyond gullible.  Like you he would be mentally unhinged.  However, consider that the complexity of your scenario requires the suspension of the understanding of human nature.  For your conspiracy theory to be true, hundreds or thousands of people would have to keep the secret.  Paul, it is not rational.  No rational person can believe this to be true.  Rather than the “simply complex”, the truth is simple.  Some Arabs who were all Muslims hijacked four airliners, then, flew them into three buildings and the ground.  End of story.

________________________________

If he implies that which you have just stated, he is beyond gullible.  Like you he would be mentally unhinged.  However, consider that the complexity of your scenario requires the suspension of the understanding of human nature.  For your conspiracy theory to be true, hundreds or thousands of people would have to keep the secret.  Paul, it is not rational.  No rational person can believe this to be true.  Rather than the “simply complex”, the truth is simple.  Some Arabs who were all Muslims hijacked four airliners, then, flew them into three buildings and the ground.  End of story.

________________________________

Ah, “anti-corpo-protectionist” Thanks for the clarification, because I definitely had a “wtf?” moment there ;-)

I’m fine with the re-labelling. In this day and age, the terms are propagandized into and out of reputability so fast as to be practically meaningless, anyway. You asked very few questions, though, so it’s possible I’m a bit less libertarian than I’ve indicated. No matter. Even if there is no word for my belief system, I still believe in it.

Ah, “anti-corpo-protectionist” Thanks for the clarification, because I definitely had a “wtf?” moment there ;-)

I’m fine with the re-labelling. In this day and age, the terms are propagandized into and out of reputability so fast as to be practically meaningless, anyway. You asked very few questions, though, so it’s possible I’m a bit less libertarian than I’ve indicated. No matter. Even if there is no word for my belief system, I still believe in it.

WHAT TYPE OF LIES ARE AT WORK BY THE WESTERN CRIMINALS, THE REALTY IS THAT IRAQ IS STILL THE SAME AS THE BEGINNING, THE AMERICAN,MEAT AS WELL THE WESTERN, MEAT ARE GETTING BARBECUED, AS WELL PICK UP LIKE THE PIGEONS, AS TO THEIR SO CALLED M-RAPS AND SEVERAL OTHERS ARE NO MATCH FOR THE DESTRUCTION, OF THIS SHIT, THE USA AS WELL THE REST OF THE WESTERN CRIMINALS LIE AS THIS IS THEIR CULTURE, THE USA IS MELTING DOWN MAS WELL THEIR NATO CRIMINALS THEIR FINANCIAL WORLD IS IN TOTAL MELTDOWN,IT DOES NOT MATTER AS HOW MUCH THEY TRY TO CONCEAL THE TRUTH FROM THE REALTY, THE WORLD KNOWS THAT THE USA AS WELL THEIR WESTERN CRIMINAL SUPPORTERS ARE BEEN SLAUGHTERER, WICH I ENJOY TO WATCH THE RESISTANCE SLAUGHTERING THIS EXCREMENT.

I can only speak for myself.
I am white and conservative.
I voted for President Obama in 2008 but because the war in Afganistan I shall vote against him from now on no mather how bad the other guy is.

Here s what I have for you as a follow up to Mister Hersh…

Flyby News Notes – <http://www.flybynews.com/>www.FlybyNews.com
Editor – Jonathan Mark
May 12, 2010 – New World Reports – Bowman Interview

Notes: Placed under critical breaking news is the latest Christopher
Story World Reports article. He answers questions that I wonder about
in quite specific terms. His credibility can no longer be questioned,
as he is exposing a corrupt world finance governments that produce
deceptive wars, control media, and afford the entitlement to a few,
while the majority suffers. If you watched “Dark Legacy: George Bush
and the Murder of John Kennedy,” you would know that Mr. Story is
focusing on the correct people and circumstances showing how WWII
continues today in threatening fascism (or their New World Order)
throughout our world. Note, too, my latest TV production in
interviewing an inspiration for all who serve the USA and believe in
principles of the US Constitution.

Recent Issue:
* Tuesday, May 11, 2010 -
<http://www.flybynews.com/cgi-local/newspro/view…,>
Dean Elena Kagan: Harvard's Gitmo Kangaroo..

What's the surprise? The world knows that the myth of the West as respectful of human rights is just a myth spread by its propaganda machine. Wasn't the West the perpetrators of the worst butcheries in two world wars? Weren't they the ones who drop not one but two atomic bombs on defenseless populations?

The poor deluded souls waging unjust war in a foreign land, who commit murder after responding to the “kill kill kill” philosophy imbued into them during training, become grist for the suicide mill that currently takes the lives of around sixteen ex GI's per day, when they get back home!

OK you’re either an idiot or a troll…either way, you are dismissed. Place your meme back in your pocket and walk back to the institution now. Wait at least 5 years and try again. You’ll get it someday.

Funny how you belive 19 men from caves can do what a cadre of westerners would need hundreds of thousands of people to do. Maybe one day we’ll be as smart and talented as Arabs.

I must say he is rally very good journalist, great that he helped break the story that detainee. I really like this article. I really happy that this type of people are still in the world. Preemptive enforcement of those that aren't liked and reasons as reasonable as for the invasion of Iraq

Paul, how long have you been a racist?

________________________________

Paul, how long have you been a racist?

________________________________

My two pennies say you’ve hit the nail square in the face.

My two pennies say you’ve hit the nail square in the face.

Just wondering, my friend: how do you KNOW that President Obama “has absolute, unreviewable authority” over anything? Because it says so in the Constitution? Well, my copy also says that only Congress has the authority to declare war–on anyone. And there’s no mention of them having any right to cede that right, for any reason. Iraq much?

I suppose what I’m saying is words can express all sorts of pretty ideals, but they control nothing, especially the actions of humans.

Just wondering, my friend: how do you KNOW that President Obama “has absolute, unreviewable authority” over anything? Because it says so in the Constitution? Well, my copy also says that only Congress has the authority to declare war–on anyone. And there’s no mention of them having any right to cede that right, for any reason. Iraq much?

I suppose what I’m saying is words can express all sorts of pretty ideals, but they control nothing, especially the actions of humans.

Er…um…JFK anyone? Clearly, he pissed off the wrong people.

Er…um…JFK anyone? Clearly, he pissed off the wrong people.

Actually, like most of those who flatter themselves with the term “conservative”, Dubya’s reading skills are pretty low. Let’s not even mention attention span. Why do you think he married a librarian?

I’d be willing to bet a substantial sum that not only has Dubya never “read the whole Constitution in one sitting”, but that in fact he probably couldn’t answer a single high-school level question about it. I don’t imagine he ever cared.

Actually, like most of those who flatter themselves with the term “conservative”, Dubya’s reading skills are pretty low. Let’s not even mention attention span. Why do you think he married a librarian?

I’d be willing to bet a substantial sum that not only has Dubya never “read the whole Constitution in one sitting”, but that in fact he probably couldn’t answer a single high-school level question about it. I don’t imagine he ever cared.

The Book of the SubGenius teaches us that there is absolutely no difference between the extreme “left” and the extreme “right”. Once a Pink Boy, always a Pink Boy–unless promoted to be one of the Overmen, but that’s a separate chapter.

The Book of the SubGenius teaches us that there is absolutely no difference between the extreme “left” and the extreme “right”. Once a Pink Boy, always a Pink Boy–unless promoted to be one of the Overmen, but that’s a separate chapter.

Thanks kiboshki…………looks like we both backed away from the edge of the cliff.

Your point about civility rings true after that comment, and I will make sure not to doubt your sincere desire to put this countries welfare ahead of the Dems or Obama again.
Peace!

Thanks kiboshki…………looks like we both backed away from the edge of the cliff.

Your point about civility rings true after that comment, and I will make sure not to doubt your sincere desire to put this countries welfare ahead of the Dems or Obama again.
Peace!

Hey Paul, nice conversation here, sorry I am jumping in late.

I like kiboshkis definition of progressive.
But the libertarian comparison from you might be a bit much.
I favor health care, real health care, like Canada, Cuba or most of the European countries have.
I favor education spending and social safety nets. I am guessing that kibosh probably does too. Those areas seem to be where libertarians and progressives part company.

However, for the time being I believe there is much more in common between these two groups than between any of us and either D or R party.
But we both stand united against endless war, torture, crackdowns on our freedom, corrupt government, corporate rule, etc.
Divided, they rule us. United? Let’s hope we find out.
Peace.

Hey Paul, nice conversation here, sorry I am jumping in late.

I like kiboshkis definition of progressive.
But the libertarian comparison from you might be a bit much.
I favor health care, real health care, like Canada, Cuba or most of the European countries have.
I favor education spending and social safety nets. I am guessing that kibosh probably does too. Those areas seem to be where libertarians and progressives part company.

However, for the time being I believe there is much more in common between these two groups than between any of us and either D or R party.
But we both stand united against endless war, torture, crackdowns on our freedom, corrupt government, corporate rule, etc.
Divided, they rule us. United? Let’s hope we find out.
Peace.

Guns & gold, luv. Guns & gold.

Guns & gold, luv. Guns & gold.

Very cool, thanks.
Peace!

Wanna read something fascinating? Check it:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm

If, like me, you recognize a lot of the same rhetoric one currently hears at both political extremes, albeit more civil and less strident, you might be able to see the glimmer of a long-term strategy: divide and conquer.

Well, we don’t know. And I have considerable respect for those who are disappointed in where we haven’t come since Bush bid us bye-bye. There are a lot of high class minds and patriots in that category.

And even if I’m right about Obama, opposition from the Left is healthy. Remember, he said “Go out and make me do it”, quoting Belafonte quoting Eleanor quoting FDR. He needs a groundswell to provide blocking if he’s truly minded to carry the ball, and to kick him in the ass if he isn’t.

But the one thing we best not do is, for cause of insufficient forward yardage, turn around and make an own goal for ourselves by letting a bunch more “Party-Of-No”ers into the mix.

We need to celebrate what we’ve accomplished and howl for lots more. Bernie Sanders says my opinion as well as anybody.

You ignorant ass

You ignorant ass

Thanks for your deep & insightful commentary.
I’ll cherish it always.

Ah, Bernie. Former mayor of my former hometown, Burlington, Vermont. The only true Socialist in our entire government, and not a single TeaBagger knows it! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I’ve followed his career from the beginning, and I have to agree with you. He’s one of the very few of our elected representatives who actually deserves to be there, and one of the very few who’s interested in doing his job.

Unlike most of the great unwashed, I’m not ready to stick a fork in Obama and his administration after just over a year in office. In fact, most of the screechers have been doing so since before he was even inaugurated. There’s plenty of them here, you can see what I mean. They know who they are, if they do in fact know anything at all. They carry the same intellectual weight as this dream in my pocket.

Ah, Bernie. Former mayor of my former hometown, Burlington, Vermont. The only true Socialist in our entire government, and not a single TeaBagger knows it! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I’ve followed his career from the beginning, and I have to agree with you. He’s one of the very few of our elected representatives who actually deserves to be there, and one of the very few who’s interested in doing his job.

Unlike most of the great unwashed, I’m not ready to stick a fork in Obama and his administration after just over a year in office. In fact, most of the screechers have been doing so since before he was even inaugurated. There’s plenty of them here, you can see what I mean. They know who they are, if they do in fact know anything at all. They carry the same intellectual weight as this dream in my pocket.

Though I do wish you kids would play nicer, I would like to take the time to commend you for this cogent statement:

“Your manner is a symptom of a greater disease in this society: that people have become ill-considered and impatient, and have completely jettisoned the ability– perhaps even the desire– to have constructive discussions with someone who has slightly different beliefs.”

You are SO FUCKING RIGHT!! And I’ve been watching this erosion of civility accelerate and expand exponentially pretty much since the beginning of the phony-conservative insurgency throughout this culture, i.e., the Reagan years. I can trace the souring of public discourse right to the Gingrich gang, and it really caught fire with the despicable and pathetic display of the impeachment proceedings against Clinton. It’s devolution at its finest. Don’t know how many of you out there have kids, but if you do you recognize this behavior right away. You can find it in any sandbox on any playground at any day-care in the country, more predictable than sunshine.

Though I do wish you kids would play nicer, I would like to take the time to commend you for this cogent statement:

“Your manner is a symptom of a greater disease in this society: that people have become ill-considered and impatient, and have completely jettisoned the ability– perhaps even the desire– to have constructive discussions with someone who has slightly different beliefs.”

You are SO FUCKING RIGHT!! And I’ve been watching this erosion of civility accelerate and expand exponentially pretty much since the beginning of the phony-conservative insurgency throughout this culture, i.e., the Reagan years. I can trace the souring of public discourse right to the Gingrich gang, and it really caught fire with the despicable and pathetic display of the impeachment proceedings against Clinton. It’s devolution at its finest. Don’t know how many of you out there have kids, but if you do you recognize this behavior right away. You can find it in any sandbox on any playground at any day-care in the country, more predictable than sunshine.

Though I do wish you kids would play nicer, I would like to take the time to commend you for this cogent statement:

“Your manner is a symptom of a greater disease in this society: that people have become ill-considered and impatient, and have completely jettisoned the ability– perhaps even the desire– to have constructive discussions with someone who has slightly different beliefs.”

You are SO FUCKING RIGHT!! And I’ve been watching this erosion of civility accelerate and expand exponentially pretty much since the beginning of the phony-conservative insurgency throughout this culture, i.e., the Reagan years. I can trace the souring of public discourse right to the Gingrich gang, and it really caught fire with the despicable and pathetic display of the impeachment proceedings against Clinton. It’s devolution at its finest. Don’t know how many of you out there have kids, but if you do you recognize this behavior right away. You can find it in any sandbox on any playground at any day-care in the country, more predictable than sunshine.

Though I do wish you kids would play nicer, I would like to take the time to commend you for this cogent statement:

“Your manner is a symptom of a greater disease in this society: that people have become ill-considered and impatient, and have completely jettisoned the ability– perhaps even the desire– to have constructive discussions with someone who has slightly different beliefs.”

You are SO FUCKING RIGHT!! And I’ve been watching this erosion of civility accelerate and expand exponentially pretty much since the beginning of the phony-conservative insurgency throughout this culture, i.e., the Reagan years. I can trace the souring of public discourse right to the Gingrich gang, and it really caught fire with the despicable and pathetic display of the impeachment proceedings against Clinton. It’s devolution at its finest. Don’t know how many of you out there have kids, but if you do you recognize this behavior right away. You can find it in any sandbox on any playground at any day-care in the country, more predictable than sunshine.

[...] US troops executing prisoners in Afghanistan, journalist says [...]

A “progressive” is…a label.

On that wavelength, I’d like to see the same kind of clarification on another label I find incomprehensible–the term “troll”.

I frequent many right-wing blogs and have for years. In a world increasingly out of control, it behooves the prudent participant to keep a keen eye on those who are MOST out of control.

Understand, me lovelies, there is absolutely ZERO difference–in rhetoric, tactics, or indeed, ideology itself–between the extreme right and the extreme left. They all suffer from the same infantile DEMAND that everything be their way, all the time, always. Unless or until they can grow beyond that nearly-amphibian level of development–let’s say, in 4 out of 7 chakras or something–they will forever remain trapped in their intellectual kindergarten.

The only real difference I’ve ever found between political polar extremists is not just weaponry–the preponderance of it, the obsession with it, the worship of it–but the desire, in many the hunger, to USE it. Why is it that so many right-wingers seem to think the first response to most anything they disagree with or don’t understand should rightly be violence?

Anyway, THAT is why I never fear the “left”. Most don’t have the stomach for killing, which in my book–and most other historical compendia of spiritual superstition, i.e., “holy” books–is a good thing. Those at the other end of the pendulum seem to relish violence, or at least the idea of it, and tend to be more disposed toward instigating it–and WAY better armed. Ultimately more cowardly, too, but that’s a different chapter. So, though I don’t necessarily fear them, I don’t let them stray beyond my peripheral vision.

And that is why I dabble in right-wing bloggery–it ain’t smart not to. But, not only because I can use my Shift key and type entire sentences, it occasionally occurs to one of the assemblage that I’m not exactly “one of them”. I’m assiduously anti-military–on a global basis. I don’t trust any arm of the corporatocracy or anything it tells me. I don’t find things like flag-waving, Bible-beating, nationalism, racism, “patriotism”, or other such forms of mind control as being useful to anyone but those in control.

Long–Jeezis, is THAT an understatement?–story short, I am forever being bombarded with accusations of being a “troll”, and I swear to Bob I don’t understand what that means. As far as I can tell, the term seems to designate “one who strays from the party line”. Given that these accusations are invariably leveled in public forums I can’t help being confused. If the only input you desire is that with which you agree, then why be public? Why not just start an e-mail group, open only to hand-selected entrants guaranteed to agree with you? If you can’t handle the very concept of someone disagreeing with you, why don’t you go crawl back under that rock wherein you find the rest of your ilk? Don’t forget your Huggies.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Just wonderin’…

A “progressive” is…a label.

On that wavelength, I’d like to see the same kind of clarification on another label I find incomprehensible–the term “troll”.

I frequent many right-wing blogs and have for years. In a world increasingly out of control, it behooves the prudent participant to keep a keen eye on those who are MOST out of control.

Understand, me lovelies, there is absolutely ZERO difference–in rhetoric, tactics, or indeed, ideology itself–between the extreme right and the extreme left. They all suffer from the same infantile DEMAND that everything be their way, all the time, always. Unless or until they can grow beyond that nearly-amphibian level of development–let’s say, in 4 out of 7 chakras or something–they will forever remain trapped in their intellectual kindergarten.

The only real difference I’ve ever found between political polar extremists is not just weaponry–the preponderance of it, the obsession with it, the worship of it–but the desire, in many the hunger, to USE it. Why is it that so many right-wingers seem to think the first response to most anything they disagree with or don’t understand should rightly be violence?

Anyway, THAT is why I never fear the “left”. Most don’t have the stomach for killing, which in my book–and most other historical compendia of spiritual superstition, i.e., “holy” books–is a good thing. Those at the other end of the pendulum seem to relish violence, or at least the idea of it, and tend to be more disposed toward instigating it–and WAY better armed. Ultimately more cowardly, too, but that’s a different chapter. So, though I don’t necessarily fear them, I don’t let them stray beyond my peripheral vision.

And that is why I dabble in right-wing bloggery–it ain’t smart not to. But, not only because I can use my Shift key and type entire sentences, it occasionally occurs to one of the assemblage that I’m not exactly “one of them”. I’m assiduously anti-military–on a global basis. I don’t trust any arm of the corporatocracy or anything it tells me. I don’t find things like flag-waving, Bible-beating, nationalism, racism, “patriotism”, or other such forms of mind control as being useful to anyone but those in control.

Long–Jeezis, is THAT an understatement?–story short, I am forever being bombarded with accusations of being a “troll”, and I swear to Bob I don’t understand what that means. As far as I can tell, the term seems to designate “one who strays from the party line”. Given that these accusations are invariably leveled in public forums I can’t help being confused. If the only input you desire is that with which you agree, then why be public? Why not just start an e-mail group, open only to hand-selected entrants guaranteed to agree with you? If you can’t handle the very concept of someone disagreeing with you, why don’t you go crawl back under that rock wherein you find the rest of your ilk? Don’t forget your Huggies.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Just wonderin’…

A “progressive” is…a label.

On that wavelength, I’d like to see the same kind of clarification on another label I find incomprehensible–the term “troll”.

I frequent many right-wing blogs and have for years. In a world increasingly out of control, it behooves the prudent participant to keep a keen eye on those who are MOST out of control.

Understand, me lovelies, there is absolutely ZERO difference–in rhetoric, tactics, or indeed, ideology itself–between the extreme right and the extreme left. They all suffer from the same infantile DEMAND that everything be their way, all the time, always. Unless or until they can grow beyond that nearly-amphibian level of development–let’s say, in 4 out of 7 chakras or something–they will forever remain trapped in their intellectual kindergarten.

The only real difference I’ve ever found between political polar extremists is not just weaponry–the preponderance of it, the obsession with it, the worship of it–but the desire, in many the hunger, to USE it. Why is it that so many right-wingers seem to think the first response to most anything they disagree with or don’t understand should rightly be violence?

Anyway, THAT is why I never fear the “left”. Most don’t have the stomach for killing, which in my book–and most other historical compendia of spiritual superstition, i.e., “holy” books–is a good thing. Those at the other end of the pendulum seem to relish violence, or at least the idea of it, and tend to be more disposed toward instigating it–and WAY better armed. Ultimately more cowardly, too, but that’s a different chapter. So, though I don’t necessarily fear them, I don’t let them stray beyond my peripheral vision.

And that is why I dabble in right-wing bloggery–it ain’t smart not to. But, not only because I can use my Shift key and type entire sentences, it occasionally occurs to one of the assemblage that I’m not exactly “one of them”. I’m assiduously anti-military–on a global basis. I don’t trust any arm of the corporatocracy or anything it tells me. I don’t find things like flag-waving, Bible-beating, nationalism, racism, “patriotism”, or other such forms of mind control as being useful to anyone but those in control.

Long–Jeezis, is THAT an understatement?–story short, I am forever being bombarded with accusations of being a “troll”, and I swear to Bob I don’t understand what that means. As far as I can tell, the term seems to designate “one who strays from the party line”. Given that these accusations are invariably leveled in public forums I can’t help being confused. If the only input you desire is that with which you agree, then why be public? Why not just start an e-mail group, open only to hand-selected entrants guaranteed to agree with you? If you can’t handle the very concept of someone disagreeing with you, why don’t you go crawl back under that rock wherein you find the rest of your ilk? Don’t forget your Huggies.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Just wonderin’…

A “progressive” is…a label.

On that wavelength, I’d like to see the same kind of clarification on another label I find incomprehensible–the term “troll”.

I frequent many right-wing blogs and have for years. In a world increasingly out of control, it behooves the prudent participant to keep a keen eye on those who are MOST out of control.

Understand, me lovelies, there is absolutely ZERO difference–in rhetoric, tactics, or indeed, ideology itself–between the extreme right and the extreme left. They all suffer from the same infantile DEMAND that everything be their way, all the time, always. Unless or until they can grow beyond that nearly-amphibian level of development–let’s say, in 4 out of 7 chakras or something–they will forever remain trapped in their intellectual kindergarten.

The only real difference I’ve ever found between political polar extremists is not just weaponry–the preponderance of it, the obsession with it, the worship of it–but the desire, in many the hunger, to USE it. Why is it that so many right-wingers seem to think the first response to most anything they disagree with or don’t understand should rightly be violence?

Anyway, THAT is why I never fear the “left”. Most don’t have the stomach for killing, which in my book–and most other historical compendia of spiritual superstition, i.e., “holy” books–is a good thing. Those at the other end of the pendulum seem to relish violence, or at least the idea of it, and tend to be more disposed toward instigating it–and WAY better armed. Ultimately more cowardly, too, but that’s a different chapter. So, though I don’t necessarily fear them, I don’t let them stray beyond my peripheral vision.

And that is why I dabble in right-wing bloggery–it ain’t smart not to. But, not only because I can use my Shift key and type entire sentences, it occasionally occurs to one of the assemblage that I’m not exactly “one of them”. I’m assiduously anti-military–on a global basis. I don’t trust any arm of the corporatocracy or anything it tells me. I don’t find things like flag-waving, Bible-beating, nationalism, racism, “patriotism”, or other such forms of mind control as being useful to anyone but those in control.

Long–Jeezis, is THAT an understatement?–story short, I am forever being bombarded with accusations of being a “troll”, and I swear to Bob I don’t understand what that means. As far as I can tell, the term seems to designate “one who strays from the party line”. Given that these accusations are invariably leveled in public forums I can’t help being confused. If the only input you desire is that with which you agree, then why be public? Why not just start an e-mail group, open only to hand-selected entrants guaranteed to agree with you? If you can’t handle the very concept of someone disagreeing with you, why don’t you go crawl back under that rock wherein you find the rest of your ilk? Don’t forget your Huggies.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me? Just wonderin’…

“WE’ve had a semantyic (sic) blur come over political labels to the point that so much is obscured that it becomes difficult to know exactly WHAT you really are.”

How about “human”?

“WE’ve had a semantyic (sic) blur come over political labels to the point that so much is obscured that it becomes difficult to know exactly WHAT you really are.”

How about “human”?

“WE’ve had a semantyic (sic) blur come over political labels to the point that so much is obscured that it becomes difficult to know exactly WHAT you really are.”

How about “human”?

“WE’ve had a semantyic (sic) blur come over political labels to the point that so much is obscured that it becomes difficult to know exactly WHAT you really are.”

How about “human”?

Dance..dance little sister, dance…

Dance..dance little sister, dance…

Dance..dance little sister, dance…

Dance..dance little sister, dance…

What a “troll” really is (or is supposed to be) is more or less a “rabble-rouser”. It’s someone– often with little honest interest in the subject– who breaks forum rules and/or instigates fights in a discussion, usually by making repetitive, inflammatory, off-topic statements that are guaranteed to generate lots of responses. The useful part of the discussion gets buried among the insults and mindless talking points.

If you’re ever accused of being a troll when you’re trying to make a real point or engage in useful dialog, well, you’re accusers are wrong. To them “troll” is just an epithet, with no meaning other than “go away, I don’t agree with you”. Unfortunately, a lot of boards where passions can run high do devolve into echo chambers and use the word technically incorrectly.

That said, it’s also easy to make the accusation honestly but unfairly, especially when debating someone unfamiliar or repetitious, or who makes short uninformative responses. And, at least for me, it’s all to easy to use it as an epithet just because, well, I’m only human ;-) But I think most people try to be fair about it, or honestly don’t understand that “troll” actually has a fairly specific meaning.

And I think the internet makes it even worse. The anonymity it allows makes it so easy to spout off with no accountability. The mostly-text format makes it easy to misunderstand each other. And seeing one’s own words on the screen drawing a reaction brings instant gratification.

Yeah, it’s definitely one of those things about modern life that I could do without– especially since I’m guilty of it now and then, and wish I wasn’t!

I call B.S. I didn’t vote for Obama (Green here, lot of good it does), do not think Obama is God, but I’m telling you, this hatred for him is hypocritical. Why do you wait for someone to lie to you before you get angry enough to do something about them? Oh, it’s OK if they rape the American people, rape the planet and destroy countless lives just as long as they’re HONEST about it? Are you serious?

No, you’re racist. I see this all over the place. Wow, it sucked when the white guys did it but we’ll just sit around on our thumbs. All of a sudden *BOOM* a black guy is up there, with an Arabic name no less, OMG, it’s World War Three.

Admit it! Because YOU are lying too. And everyone who thinks like you is as well.

The only thing that can redeem your rhetoric as far as I’m concerned, EVER, is if you use this level of vitriol REGARDLESS of who the target is and BEFORE they start lying to you. Otherwise… I call B.S. Too bad it isn’t real. I could use some compost for my garden.

Shooting enemy prisoners is ILLEGAL. We are a signatory to the Geneva Conventions. Look it up, drone.

Don’t bother being anti-government unless you are also anti-nation. The ONLY way you can be against a big government in the United States of America is if you advocate doing away with the United States of America. No more government, no more states, no more COUNTRY, just people living randomly and doing what they want.

If that is not what you want then we need a government. And since we are a LARGE NATION, we need a correspondingly LARGE GOVERNMENT.

It’s not the size of the government that matters. It’s what you do with it. Hahaha.

And you’re morally bankrupt. “Extremist” is a lazy label. What is your EXACT problem with someone’s ideology? Do you believe it’s wrong? Why is it wrong? Do you believe it’s harmful? Why is it harmful? Give us specifics. What the hell is an “extremist”?

stop the name calling. i know what is legal and illegal. Also know from first-hand experience what takes place in a war with POW at times.

What in your opinion is the percentage, amongst all this stuffery and puffery as in this example about the absolute power of four or five words on a goatskin somewhere — the percentage, I say, of actual boggleheadedness versus actual disingenuousness?

I assume there are some that are serious about comments like that of Ed Roberts, or, better said, actually think they can get away with such presumptive dismissals of the electoral result that disenfranchised their concept of divine right to rule for the moment. And then I also assume that there are those who don’t give a damn about the constitution and are here to pull the wool over the eyes of a rather large group who are defenseless against such sleight of hand, people of the Karl Rove, or worse, Richard Helms type.

What do you, as apparently open-eyed, think is the split on these categories? Or, in brief, are they serious?

Dimwit that you are, you just addressed part of the problem: people in America are spazzed out on antidepressants, antipsychotics, anti-anxiety medications, pills for everything. When someone with a reasonable, un-medicated outlook like LFOD speaks up a bubble boy/zombie like Eric has a problem with it. There are way too many Erics out there for anyone’s good.

SORRY, Eric… Post was intended for flapdragon, not you. Agree totally with your post.

[...] Read The Entire Article Here (No Ratings Yet)  Loading … [...]

Ah, yes; the old knuckleheads vs. buttheads equation.

Seems to me the percentages vary widely depending on which sector of the populace one is aiming at. Context is everything.

In the political arena, which is the area this blog seems primarily concerned with, I think the knuckleheads have the numbers, but the buttheads have the power, i.e., any dumbass–even a Republican–should be able to see right away that most elected officials are unprincipled, self-absorbed imbeciles. You don’t have to watch more than about ten minutes of the proceedings of the House of Representatives to see this dynamic in action, in living color.

If, however, you venture into the “real world”, bumping elbows with the great unwashed, as it were, the lines begin to blur. Yes, there is a segment of the population that fervently believes everything their masters tell them, and sadly, that segment is gigantic and spans the entire length and breadth of the political spectrum. Reason number one why this shit just keeps happening, going back thousands of years. I wouldn’t really care to venture a guess as to the actual percentage of the population so encumbered, because I fear whatever number I gave would come up woefully short.

But there are also those who profit enormously from incessantly fellating those masters. They don’t wield the true power, but rather act as shills, mouthpieces, messengers, go-fers–in short, enablers. This is where you find the Karl Roves, Ollie Norths, Newt Gingriches, Glenn Becks and other such cockroaches. Their true raison d’etre is to constantly reinforce the message of the masters and to viciously, ruthlessly attack all those who do not. This is a much smaller percentage, partly because the hierarchical structure initiated by the reptiles behind the scene is deliberately designed to be very difficult to negotiate, thus winnowing the candidates for the top slots, and partly because there are only so many scumbags of that caliber in the world. Again, it would be somewhat quixotic for me to try to nail down an actual number here, percentage-wise, but my suspicions point to single digits.

Are they serious? Well, about what? Or do you mean are they a serious threat?

Yes, many millions of people refused to cooperate with the Nazis, which got most of them killed. Of course, there were also millions more who thought cooperating, or at least not resisting, would be a good idea. Got a lot of them killed, too.

I guess my point is, though it might be a noble thing to do, resigning his position and turning on the masters would not only remove Obama from the only place where he might possibly make any difference, but likely would get him killed as well, once he was no longer on TV.

As an aside, because I have no partisan ring in my nose I am free to see things as they are–or at least to make that effort. For that reason, from the very beginning of his candidacy I watched and listened to Obama VERY closely, listening to the words between, looking for HIS connection(s) to the machine. That’s when I realized, like millions of other people, that this guy was somehow different. I never for a moment considered him impervious to or removed from the influence of the masters, but his DESIRE to initiate change in what has business as usual for millennia really struck me as genuine. Still does.

Americans have been trained to have the attention span of a tomato, which explains for me why there is so much howling that Obama has yet to turn all of life perfect for all those who believe that’s his job. I mean, he’s had a year already, you know?

Interesting point. Care to take it to its logical conclusion? I will.

The valedictorian at my high school graduation–the girl who gave the commencement address–proposed the “radical” idea that perhaps nation-states were a bad idea. She was a John Lennon fan, and that was nearly 40 years ago.

Made perfect sense to me, and still does. I’ve felt for decades that there are only two possible scenarios for survival of the human species:

1.) Combine whatever resources are necessary from ALL nations on earth to immediately realize a comprehensive program for deep space exploration and colonization.

2.) Immediately and totally eliminate all money, nations, and religion–the unholy triumvirate responsible for all of mankind’s self-inflicted wounds since the dawn of history.

Of course, the ideal would be to combine the two, but humans may not have the capacity for that level of enlightenment.

“Extremism” has little to do with ideology, and more to do with implementation, imho. In a post further down from the one you’re commenting on I write:

“One of the defining characteristics of an extremist is that he doesn’t accept that other people *gasp* have varying perceptions and experiences. Nor does he ever admit that attacking people like that– who likely DO agree with them 90% of the time– is perfectly counterproductive to the cause.”

That’s my only point: an extremist doesn’t listen to or accept another’s viewpoint or sense of priorities. An extremist of any stripe needlessly stokes anger and misunderstanding– and potentially violence. It’s really not a difficult concept to grasp.

Someone with conviction argues passionately and tirelessly, but they remain logical, engaged, and (at least try to) remain respectful and understanding of their oppoenent, in order to generate a more fruitful debate.

On the other hand, an extremist belittles the opposition and fails to acknowledge that the opposition might have valid personal reasons for their beliefs. And the most extreme of the extremists hurl epithets or even shoot the opposition in the face.

Extremist christians preach hellfire and brimstone, and crusader warfare.
Extremist muslims blow up buses and nightclubs.
Extremist atheists insultingly fail to acknowledge God’s positive role in some people’s lives.
Extremist environmentalists torch other people’s property.
Extremist abortion foes murder abortion doctors.
Extremist anti-taxers fly airplanes into IRS buildings.
Yadda
yadda
yadda.

Extremists are, in a word, dangerous.

those who profit enormously from incessantly fellating those mastersCapitalism loves dictators and hates middle classes. You get plenty of Suni Abachas and Mobutus along with your Shell fillup.

why this shit just keeps happening, going back thousands of years“They are so simple, the people, and so obedient to present necessities that whoever wishes to deceive always finds him that will let himself be deceived.” The Prince, ch. 18

care to venture a guess as to the actual percentage of the population so encumberedI used the expression loosely, knowing that you would elaborate as you have done. It was more a qualitative question than quantitative.

my suspicions point to single digits. — of intentional sociopaths, you mean, versus pazzi-puppets that bash their way through life like Jonathan Winters with a tire on each arm destroying the gas station.But if the sociopaths have the same raw material to work with that we do, what’s the difference? does the success of their appeal to fear, hatred and greed and of their vilifying of hope, empathy and contentment mean that mankind is majority lost and rotten? Or is there another way into the savage breast that we haven’t tried?If Truth is our weapon and our confidence, but the Truth is that thinking is required for real contribution and thinking is odious to them, then what chance have we?But if only they could see that they are also the victim of the rich and cruel, and that they could have so much more wonderful a world — ah, but they have inherited a dog-eat-dog ethic, and I fear that nothing will pry it from them.

Thanks to Mr. Hersh for truthtelling and this site for posting his words.

I have once again been made to cry in deep shame for what is being done in my name.

Its not like it's a surprise (what is being done, and the 'non-news' treatment of this story), after so many other systemized atrocities, but its a reminder of how wrong our presence is in the Middle East.

Evil Zionist Warmachine. It will be a pleasure to se it suffer, die and disappear.

Vote National Socialism.

[...] the raw story.) Share [...]

I expect that if the Twin Towers, or any office tower, were to fall due to “natural” structual failure it would not fall into itself but would topple over. The toppling tower would then cause massive damage to nearby buildings and to the streets below. I believe that the towers were imploded intentionally. This raises the idea that ALL high rise office building in the world are rigged with explosives as part of their design in case of the eventuality that they suffer structual damage due to fire. Structural steel softens at about 1100F but concrete decomposes at half that tempurature. A high rise building is a delicate balance of steel and concrete. If the concrete fails the steel cannot take the laod by itself.

This country's conscience is going to get itself into even more trouble. Why not do it right and nuke the damn country that is nothing but a detriment to the rest of the world? I would of fired every american general for being an incompetent idiot! Why waste soldiers when we could bomb the shit out of them; and having remorse for them is going to cause more idiots to go free and cause more pain and suffering for the rest of the western world. Its like a cancer, some of the good cells have to die along with the bad cells.

[...] Also in this update, the highly credible reporter Sy Hersh has reported very disturbing allegations of possible war crimes in Afghanistan. [...]

You folks had better get a grip on the Jewish question. They have caused enough trouble for us White Gentiles far too long.

Many times it is not working. This is waaay past alliances, is strategic. It has gone too far. Evidence is all around us — imperial ambitions wastefull mindless spending on the economy is killing. Only the financial sharks can swim in these politically polluted waters. Obama is not doing what he was elected to do. Their strategic “victory are a waste of time. For whatever reason he is powerless.

[...] …In Afghanistan, the DOD has finally admitted that U.S. Special Forces killed two pregnant Afghan women and a girl earlier this year. American troops recently shot up a large passenger bus, killing and wounding civilians. Of the more than thirty people who have been killed and the eighty who have been wounded in convoy and checkpoint shootings in Afghanistan since last summer, not one was found to have been a threat. “We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat,” said Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal. And then there are prisoner executions…. [...]

[...] none has ever proven to be a threat,” said Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal. And then there are prisoner executions. These and other crimes in Afghanistan – like eradicating wedding parties – have been [...]

[...] none has ever proven to be a threat,” said Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal. And then there are prisoner executions. These and other crimes in Afghanistan – like eradicating wedding parties – have been [...]

viagra pentru femei,viagra and side effects 345)()(

viagra cheap online,viagra buy cheap 345)()(

side effects of lipitor,buy lipitor 345)()(

@chels I know what you mean, its hard to find good help these days. People now days just don’t have the work ethic they used to have. I mean consider whoever wrote this post, they must have been working hard to write that good and it took a good bit of their time I am sure. I work with people who couldn’t write like this if they tried, and getting them to try is hard enough as it is.

Very good blog, lots of valuable details.

Outstanding weblog, thanks for writing this post

thnx for sharing this blog post.

I have been searching via the internet hoping to get ideas on the way to get my personal blog site coded, your present style together with design are fantastic. Did you actually code it by yourself or did you recruit a programmer to get it done to suit your needs?

Simply just needed to mention I really respect your work on this blogging site and the quality blogposts you make. These type of posting are generally what keeps me personally going through the day time. I discovered this post after a very good close friend of my own suggested it to me. I do a little blogging and site-building myself and I am always thankful to check out others contributing high quality info towards the community. I most certainly will definitely be following and now have bookmarked your web blog to my myspace account for others to see.

great blog! keep up the great work!

More specifically, you’ll be able to find that way however, I actually didn’t enjoy it.

I have been looking around on the web looking for some ideas on how to get my web site coded, your present style and design are great. Did you code it by yourself or did you hire a coder to get it done on your behalf?

Seeing your site I am convinced i may well know via high school, could happen to attend Tx Technology? In the event you did make sure you send myself a message so we could catch up it has been several years! Expect talking to you and hope most will be well with you.

Does your website correctly show emoticons? Because my site cannot…

To be a upright benign being is to from a philanthropic of openness to the far-out, an skill to trust aleatory things beyond your own control, that can lead you to be shattered in very extreme circumstances on which you were not to blame. That says something very outstanding thither the condition of the righteous autobiography: that it is based on a conviction in the uncertain and on a willingness to be exposed; it’s based on being more like a spy than like a jewel, something somewhat fragile, but whose extremely precise handsomeness is inseparable from that fragility.

liked this post.

This is an informative post, thanks a lot!

Hey! Where is your rss link? I woul like to subscribe.

There is obviously a lot to know about this. I think you made some good points in the Feature also.

I usually don’t post in Blogs but your blog forced me to, amazing work.. beautiful …

Thanks for your time

Thanks for sharing this great article! That is extremely fascinating Smile I like reading and I am always looking for informative information like this.

If you don’t thoughts my asking, do you make great money from this blog?

Great post, thank you. I just signed up to RSS on this blog.

People want economy and they will pay any price to get it.

This was informative

hotels in killarney with swimming pool,hotels in killarney centre

your website is not showing up correctly in my browser…

Outstanding weblog, thanks for writing this report

Very good post. You are bookmarked!. Luck is with me today as I have found many great blogs like this one and Maquinas Tragaperras gratuitas. Thanks

“Hi. that is type of an -unconventional- question , but have other site visitors asked you how get the menu bar to look like you have obtained it? I also have a blog and am seriously searching to alter close to the theme, however am frightened to demise to mess with it for concern of your investigation engines punishing me. I am really new to all of this ..!..so i’m just not constructive exactly the best way to attempt to to all of it yet. I will just hold working on it one day at a time.”

——————————————–
my website is
http://golfcartbags.us

Also welcome you!

Terrific piece of content, this is very similar to a site that I have. Please check it out sometime and feel free to leave me a comenet on it and tell me what you think. Im always looking for feedback.

I love quotations because it is a joy to find thoughts one might have, beautifully expressed with much authority by someone recognized wiser than oneself.

are you insterested in link exchange?

Great post, thank you. I just signed up to your blog rss feed.

any update on this?

Thanks for your support, i am seeing here different commands also thanks for sharing. I should just give up and take lessons from you

Just to let you know your site looks really strange in Opera on my laptop with Mac .

http://guitarrecordingsoftware.info/

do you have an rss feed?

I used to be extremely delighted to locate this web site.I needed to say thanks to you with regard to this great study!!! I absolutely enjoyed each and every little bit of it and I’ve you bookmarked to examine out new issues you post.

——————————————–
美国华人
Also welcome you!

Hey greet post !

Great idea this, it’s all so pretty. What you wrote is great advice any way that you look at it.

Aw, this was a really quality post. In theory I’d like to write like this also – taking time and real effort to make a good article… but what can I say… I procrastinate alot and never seem to get anything done… Regards…

“Of program, what a great web site and educational articles, I will add backlink – bookmark this internet site? Regards,Reader.”

——————————————–
my website is cool skate boards .Also welcome you!

Good article, thanks. I really love it!

I wanted to thank you for this interesting I definitely loved every little bit of it. I have you bookmarked your site to look at the latest stuff you post.

I like to take a bust during the my day and browse by way of some blogs to view what other people are stating. This blog appeared in my search and i could not assist but clicking on it. I’m glad I did since it was a really satisfying read.

——————————————–
my website is
http://chineseastrology.us

Also welcome you!

I wanted to best wishes for this terrific read!! I definitely enjoying every little bit of it.I have you saved as a favorite to check out new stuff you article. Best wishes, Altha.

Howdy blogger, thank you for providing this article.. I found it first-class.

I don’t normally comment on blogs.. But nice post! I just bookmarked your site

[...] in Afghanistan committed a shocking series of atrocities in 2010. Captured Afghan militants were executed on the battlefield. Former US commander General Stanley McChrystal admitted that while he knew of [...]