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FBI can obtain phone records without oversight, Justice Dept memo claims

By Nathan Diebenow
Saturday, February 12, 2011 17:35 EDT
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Without court oversight, the nation’s top law enforcement agency can obtain domestic records of telephone conversations made to international receivers, the Justice Department claimed recently.

“[The Office of Legal Counsel] agreed with the FBI that under certain circumstances (word or words redacted) allows the FBI to ask for and obtain these records on a voluntary basis from the providers, without legal process or a qualifying emergency,” the Justice Department’s inspector general said in a recent report by McClatchy Newspapers.

The claim put forth in the document released to McClatchy seemed to indicate that the Obama administration has continued the previous administration’s policies.

The Bush administration maintained that the FBI needed such policing powers in order to stop possible terrorism. Critics of the FBI’s surveillance program stated that the tactic was frequently applied in abusive manners.

Kevin Bankston, a lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, told McClatchy that the OLC’s disclosure that explained its legal position on part of the 1978 federal wiretapping law was a missing puzzle piece.

“Apparently, they’ve decided that this provision means that your international communications are a privacy-free zone and that they can get records of those communications without any legal process,” Bankston said.

Bankston added that the law would still prevent the telecommunication companies from voluntarily giving the FBI their customers’ data even upon request.

The Justice Department failed to provide McClatchy with a copy of a memo the newspaper group had originally requested, a move which countered the Obama administration’s claim to perform its duties more transparently.

The American Civil Liberties Union told McClatchy that the Justice Department should not withhold the legal reasoning it uses to justify the FBI’s authority in gathering citizens’ telephone records.

“The law should never be secret,” said Michael German, an ACLU spokesperson who is a former FBI agent.

At the time Obama authorized the released four Bush-era interrogation memos previously held secret, he said information contained in them had already been widely reported and would not harm ongoing investigations. Furthermore, the techniques described in them such as waterboarding had ceased.

However, McClatchy noted that information contained in the new yet secret OLC memo was also in the public record. The inspector general added in a report that the FBI broken the law repeatedly as a result of an informal review of the phone surveillance program that the secret memo covered.

 
 
 
 
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  • reflectionsv37

    Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss. I wonder how long people in this country are going to continue to put up with this. We could learn a few things from the Egyptians.

  • ProgressiveInNewYork

    Wow, I didn’t realize that I had moved to Egypt.
    Oh Wait, they just got free.
    Too bad for us.

    Obama
    DINO

  • Anonymous

    Change we can believe in!

  • Guest

    O.K. everyone…line up, pull up your sleeves, and get ready to have your tracking chip inserted.

  • Anonymous

    It’s not a tracking chip, it’s a freedom wafer.

  • Anonymous

    Yet another article for the folder entitled “Just Like George.”

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DLLRFLTILUE3KLHQGM6WPK6VJU Brat!

    Hello? Hello? This is Egypt calling. When the hell are all you North Americans going to wake up to the government takeover of your soil, and the trampling of your rights and freedoms?

  • Guest

    Bend over and kiss your first amendment good-bye. I’m very disappointed in Obama; I thought he was going to bring sanity (and legal reasoning) back to the civil rights’ abuses of the Bush years. This is the one area that will make me withhold my active support from the Democrats. I’ll probably vote for them, but I’ll be damned if they get any of my active participation or money. Are you listening DNC?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_KLF5SUA5RDYXG54WWF5SHMVRAI X

    Here’s the un-redacted version of that portion of the Justice Department report:

    “The President’s crooked lawyer agreed with the FBI that under certain circumstances the President’s illegal directive allows the FBI to ask for and obtain these records on a voluntary basis from the providers, without legal process or a qualifying emergency.”

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Valentine/1277133078 Michael Valentine

    The same DoJ that said waterboarding was okay?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_34PG2CPUOL4ERY3C2UN7RNVMSE Paul

    All the more reason to use Skype for international calls….

  • Anonymous

    More fun from the Obush crowd.

  • Anonymous

    The criminal regime continues its assault against the civil liberties of Americans. At this rate, soon it will be illegal, or de facto illegal, to say anything unkind about banks, corporations, or our illustrious political elite.

  • Anonymous

    Here in this nation self anointed as beacon of freedom and democracy, we lead by example, and around the world people aren’t clambering to emulate these examples, they are questioning and seeking ways to be rid of such. Too bad in the U.S. we’re battered by the abuser’s sweet propaganda, “..it’s for you baby.” It’s not bad enough yet. Thus appropriately the title ‘Eyes wide Shut’ lends itself.

  • Guest

    Spin?

  • Guest

    Only when fast food and T.V. are deemed illegal.

  • Anonymous

    Why would you vote for someone who is actively trying to steal your liberty. Vote third party.

  • Roberthe

    Warrants? We don’t need no stinking warrants. Or: Fourth Amendment? You don’t need no stinkin’ Fourth Amendment.

  • http://twitter.com/VaginaHedgeFund Lloyd Blankfein

    All Hail the great Eric Holder… defender of justice and human liberties.

  • Anonymous

    This country is a sham. The constitution is violated at will by these fascist enforcement agencies, the courts are corrupt and no longer uphold the rule of law. The America that we all grew up with is long gone.

  • Anonymous

    They cannot tap my phone. I use tin cans connected by string and buttons.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/42THFKXIPMJHQBIH6OPI4RVIDY Thebes

    Barack Obama Über Alles!

  • Guest

    Because splitting the liberal vote could result in a Republican administration. It happened in 2000 and we suffered through eight very long and bitter years with King George. I can’t live through that again. If there is a third party candidate, he or she must be electable. It’s a case of the lesser of two evils.

  • Ma’at

    Our government would do well to remember Egypt.

  • Anonymous

    Hell they are data mining everything on the internet , phones and all communications we have.
    The only communications they are not allowed to capture is that of their Global Employers.

    We no longer have any freedom or rights.

    That should be clear to everyone now….

  • Roberthe

    Although I understand what you are saying I personally won’t go down that road again. I promised myself that if Obama was nothing more than another hypocritical opportunist I was done with the Democratic Party. I refuse any longer to be part of the Great Lurch Toward the Right that the Dems have been engaged in for the last 20 years. The Democratic Party now occupies the space that the Republicans were in just a few decades back. They have deserted their base, labor and the middle class; the former has evaporated under the onslaught of corporation-friendly legislation, the latter is now nothing more than a killing field for the rich. If the Dems put up candidates who fought for political, religious and economic justice I would consistently vote for them, even if they lost every time. But I’m done with the lesser of two evils gambit; I refuse to be complicit in my being violated by people who obviously have no real interest in my needs, or the needs of the people who voted for them out of a desperate hope that they wouldn’t be lied to yet again.

  • Anonymous

    France, you might as well take your Statue of Liberty back.

  • Anonymous

    Well hello George W. Obama!

    Same fucking asshole and administration, just a little darker skin color and lacking a fake Texas Gold Old Boy accent.

    The Constitution Lawyer asks: What Constitution? What Bill of Rights?

    The only rights you got are the ones I give you!

  • Taleisin

    ‘Furthermore, the techniques described in them such as waterboarding had ceased.’

    So have other goverment bodies in the USA stopped waterboarding too?
    I expect to see the same level for intolerance of CIA terrorism in foreign nations as there is for foreign terrorism on American soil.

  • Guest

    I appreciate and respect what you’re saying. I just don’t believe that standing on principle alone is a stance I wish to take. What are the alternatives? The Tea Party? The Green Party? The Libertarians? Each of these has their attraction, but taken as a whole, they are less palatable to me than the Democrats. I also don’t believe any of these has the strength or power to undo what has been done to our rights. If they got into the majority, I don’t think that they would or could undo what has been done.

    And this is the problem with our two party system. Until a party gains enough seats, it is ignored. If it wins one seat somewhere, it soon disappears, usually in the next election. Maybe coalitions similar to what the Germans or the English have are the answer.

    I also wish there was a strong network of people dedicated to protest via marches, disobedience and civil education. This is something I really miss about the sixties. Now it’s all forums, e-mails and letters to your Congressmen. Kind of like this.

  • Anonymous

    Just chipping away……..chipping away at all our freedoms.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_WZYSBZYGBM5D2NU2GZ6WHL66LU Grove

    WAKE THE HELL UP AMERICA. WE THE PEOPLE HAVE ONLY ABOUT TWO YEARS TO GET A WRITE-IN CANDIDATE CAMPAIGN GOING FOR US.I AM AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN A REGISTERED INDEPENDENT,BUT AFTER CHECKING OUT WHO I WOULDSTAND BEHIND,I CHOOSE DENNIS KUCINICH AS THE WRITE=IN CANDIDATE. NOT BECAUSE HE IS A DEMOCRAT,BUT BECAUSE WHEN I CHECKED HIS VOTING RECORD OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS OR SO I REALIZED THAT HE MADE THE CORRECT VOTE FOR HIS CONSTIUANCIES EVERY SINGLE TIME.
    WAKE THE HELL UP AMERICA WE THE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LACADASIAL TO LOING AND WE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO TURN THIS GOVERNMENT AROUND IF WE DON’T START TO TAKE IT BACK WITH HASTE.

  • Anonymous

    There is no privacy and no justice. We are a crisis away from an irreversible police state. Detention camps have been built and Blackwater is still funded. The military continues to cross the line, Air Force threatening civilians over wikileaks. They like the Egyptian model. Secrecy and tyranny go hand in hand. There are dark forces at work here.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXTnYCg8v8o Bamboo_Harvester

    how’s that polices state workin for ya

    DISSARM THE PIGS

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXTnYCg8v8o Bamboo_Harvester

    You bet !

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXTnYCg8v8o Bamboo_Harvester

    Who murdered Eurie Stamps and who’s covering it up ?

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXTnYCg8v8o Bamboo_Harvester

    test

  • Roberthe

    Several million of us were on the streets prior to the Iraq war but there is no cohesion today-we’re too diffuse, too coddled, too lulled. I sense our situation needs to get truly desperate before any integrative movement occurs in America-so far bread, circuses and Fox have been enough to prevent forward progress. But when the cheap food and energy disappear, when the Gestapo starts kicking in the doors on a regular basis, when the schools finally collapse, when the last job moves to Bangladesh then we’ll see if there’s any hope to wake this nation up from its narcolepsy.

    Regardless, I’m interested in hearing solutions, and I’m more than ready to hit the pavement again, even if I no longer am able to outrun the cops. Maybe I’ll see you there. Good luck.

  • Elim

    US “Just Us” Dept supersedes, overrides and usurps the authority of The Supreme Court and the Constitution of the United States.

  • Elim

    Another cop fuck up. Let them finish their investigation, then decide who gets the blame.

  • Elim

    Obama should be challenged by a real progressive, who brings up all of his abuses, and all the uncorrected abuses of the Bush administration.

  • Elim

    Their vote will be split too, by a Tea Party candidate. This is just what we need to inject some life back into our political process. Two outsiders to knock off the usual contenders.

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/LEUDUVF5EGJZRZETF3KV53P7BQ Thomas

    I wonder if that’s what happened to me yesterday. My phone and internet service went out for the entire day. Steven or Fred or Bill, whoever it was at the India call center, told me it was a technical problem that affected my entire area. When I asked around the area if anyone else had the same problem, nobody experienced any problems with their phones or internet service. Strange, also, when I wanted a certain phone company, who in their disclaimers, can stop my service if I say anything bad about them, suddenly restored my service when I wanted the bill to reflect the day of no service. Not saying that the FBI was investigating who I call or what I post, but I guess money means more to the phone company than what a government agency wants.

  • Anonymous

    We might just as well start flying the hammer and sickle over the White House.

  • Anonymous

    it sure looks like ots time for citizens to pull an egypt on doj. surround the bui;ding and do a citizens arrestr om every sorry employee there. department of justice , my ass, this is nothing but a miscarriage of justice.and holder and all his lackeys deserve the gallows.

  • Anonymous

    Obama specifically addressed civil rights when he was elected. This is NOT what he was saying at the time. I’m about sick of this shit. And Democrats wonder how the totally useless GOP gets elected repeatedly. Democrats stab us in the back again.

  • hegesias

    You name the time and place and I’ll…oh, wait, American Idle is on.

  • CozmicSeer

    All one can say is the FBI wants to make sure you follow the law and punish you if you don’t but when they don’t follow the law, where is the punishment on the people who were responsible, including the upper management? Just shows what hypocrites they are and they deserve no respect from us if this is the way they are going to behave. I used to think the FBI was an upstanding organization but years ago I realized they were becoming more and more like the Stazi in East Germany. If they continue down the path they have chosen, it is only a matter of time before the become exactly like them.

    If they want us to rethink our positions, they had better make some drastic changes to the way they operate. One of which is to get back to respecting the Bill of Rights the rest of us believe in. Otherwise, it would be in their interest in seeing what happened to the Stazi eventually as all of us are familiar with how history repeats itself.

  • Anonymous

    The FBI’s flagrant disregard for the 4th amendment here is no surprise, given all the times Mulder and Scully entered people’s premises without a warrant or any kind of probable cause, and all this right in front of cameras.

  • Anonymous

    There better be an awakening here.

    Obama apologists, contemplate this fact and let it r-eally sink in: Obama wants the Patriot Act extended two years LONGER than the R-E-P-U-B-L-I-C-A-N-S do.

    If that doesn’t scare you right down to your shoes, you have got to go down and change your voter registration immediately to anything other than Democrat. Because you sure don’t have the values of any real Democrats I know.

    I don’t know how many more ways I can say it.

  • Wyrdless

    “”"[The Office of Legal Counsel] agreed with the FBI that under certain circumstances (word or words redacted) allows the FBI to ask for and obtain these records on a voluntary basis from the providers, without legal process or a qualifying emergency,”"”

    They don’t have the authority to do this. They may have the ability, guns, the NSA snooping centers and a ‘office of legal council’ statement, But, they have no legitimacy or authority under the law to do this.

    All of the talking and bullshitting in the world is not going to get rid of the fourth amendment, the superiority of the constitution above all other law and our fundamental right, exterior to government or the whims of other men and women, to be free of search by an arbitrary, non-transparent and unaccountable process.

  • H.P. Loathecraft

    Or sue any of them for redress of grievance. “Tort reform” coming to a Republican Congress near you.

  • H.P. Loathecraft

    “The law should never be secret,” said Michael German, an ACLU spokesperson who is a former FBI agent.

    Der Dritt reich wird eine tausend Jahre dauern!

  • PartisansBlow

    His name is Dennis Kucinich and he runs every 4 years and the “liberals” abandon him within weeks because he’s unelectable. Very few people on either side seem to have much in the way of principles. Ron Paul won the CPAC straw poll AGAIN, but will never have a chance of seeing the ballot.

  • Guest

    Kucinich was probably as close to my political views as any other candidate in the last election. But I can’t see him as a write-in candidate. If he couldn’t win in the field of Democrats, do you really think he could win as a write-in? It would be a waste of a good vote; I don’t believe that it’s smart to use your vote to make a statement.

    BTW, LOSE THE CAPS! We’re not here to yell at each other.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Lon-Warneke/1409625620 Lon Warneke

    Insanity…
    The voters here will continue to exchange one inept political party for another inept political party while expecting different results.

  • Guest

    I’m there, brother. I too marched against the Iraq war. I would definitely march again for the right cause. There does not seem to be any organized protest in the US (which is very odd given the way the Egyptians were able to coalesce and protest against their government). The only viable group seems to be the Tea Party. Their goals seem too diffuse; the only thing they are able to agree on is that they’re angry and they want a smaller government. I also am angry, but what the Tea Party stands for is too hazy and ill-defined. However, I was heartened to see some of the Tea Partiers vote against the extension of the Patriot Act. Such independence was encouraging.

  • Rabid_Liberal

    No wonder, Mr. Obama, that you said “Let’s look forward, not backward” when you refused to prosecute the bush clan. It’s because you were planning on doing the same thing as bushco.

    You didn’t close Gitmo, you didn’t stop the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, you’re extending the Patriot Act, no prosecutions for Wall St. corruption, illegal surveillance. Also, you gave BP power to expel the media during the gulf oil disaster.

    Your analogy about how the republicans drove the car into the ditch and they wanted the keys back when you had already pulled the car out of the muck, doesn’t quite cut it. The car is still stuck because you refuse to pull it out.

  • Anonymous

    so much for the 4th amendment, eh? but the letter of the constitution is clear that if the government spies upon us we have the right to spy on our government. so… hack in; gather all secrets; expose. repeat. repeat.

  • Anonymous

    that’s mister barack obamabush to you, sir!

  • TheDevilCanDance

    Hahaha, Crap Master Obama strikes again, this man is the poster boy for perfidy & treachery.

    Obama apologists, your man is nothing but opportunistic filth….

  • Anonymous

    see link for full story
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/27/siu.fbi.internal.documents/index.html
    CNN exclusive: FBI misconduct reveals sex, lies and videotape

    By Scott Zamost and Kyra Phillips, CNN Special Investigations Unit
    January 27, 2011

    Editor’s note: Some content in this report may be offensive to readers. For more on this CNN exclusive story, watch Kyra Phillips’ full report on “The Situation Room With Wolf Blitzer” tonight starting at 5 p.m. ET.

    Washington (CNN) — An FBI employee shared confidential information with his girlfriend, who was a news reporter, then later threatened to release a sex tape the two had made.

    A supervisor watched pornographic videos in his office during work hours while “satisfying himself.”

    And an employee in a “leadership position” misused a government database to check on two friends who were exotic dancers and allowed them into an FBI office after hours.

    These are among confidential summaries of FBI disciplinary reports obtained by CNN, which describe misconduct by agency supervisors, agents and other employees over the last three years.

    Read the FBI documents obtained by CNN

    – An employee had “a sexual relationship with a source” over seven months. The punishment was a 40-day suspension.
    – The supervisor who viewed “pornographic movies in the office while sexually satisfying himself” during work hours received a 35-day suspension.
    – The employee in a “leadership position” who misused a “government database to conduct name checks on two friends who were foreign nationals employed as exotic dancers” and “brought the two friends into FBI space after-hours without proper authorization” received a 23-day suspension. The same employee had been previously suspended for misusing a government database.
    – An employee who was drunk “exploited his FBI employment at a strip club,” falsely claiming he was “conducting an official investigation.” His punishment was a 30-day suspension.
    – And an employee conducted “unauthorized searches on FBI databases” for “information on public celebrities the employee thought were ‘hot’” received a 30-day suspension.

  • Anonymous

    Actually, DOJ, no they can’t.

    Now, you can decide not to prosecute the FBI for breaking the law, but you are simply being complicit in the crime.

    I no longer have respect for the “law” in the US. We are a banana republic whose laws only apply the way those in power want them to apply.

  • Anonymous

    The trashing of the constitution by the FBI really irritates me. These jerks do not even play by the rules as their IG has testified before Congress. It would appear that our legislators would act to eliminate the abuse and pulls these guys in line. FBI can be a force for good, but if they can’t conduct their business in contravention of the constitution because if they act illegitimately they are no better than the bad guys they chase.

  • Anonymous

    Everyone needs to start employing end-to-end encryption on ALL private communications ASAP. If we make the FBI/NSA work to try to decrypt everything that travels over the internet instead of just the rare exceptions, it’ll be a lot harder for them to pull this shit on us.

  • Anonymous

    True, but don’t forget that 4th Amendment infringement, or rather, obliteration.

  • Anonymous

    The problem here is, the “lesser” has become the “evil”, but now there are two of “them”.

  • Anonymous

    I agree with a lot of what you have to say, however, the Tea Party should always be mentioned in the same sentence of the Koch Brothers, or Koch Enterprises.

  • Anonymous

    Exactly along those lines, check out Greenwald’s comments

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/02/11/campaigns/index.html

  • Anonymous

    Can’t you just smell the Orwellian stench?

    Next on the plutocracy’s agenda, uniform Internet Identity, ostensibly for “security”. Then eventually a cashless system (that will also outlaw bartering).

    It takes not too much imagination, to envision the vast new array of power to the State, such a system would afford, pardon the pun.

  • Anonymous

    You speak the truth.

  • Anonymous

    Apparently, he is utilizing his Constitutional scholarship, as a means to more effectively dismantle such.

  • Johnny Warbucks

    This is déjà vu from the Bushco era. Why are they reporting on the same thing again?

  • Anonymous

    Please, tell me how this is done?

  • Anonymous

    Spy on me? No, I will get inside your head and Mind Flock you, Pigs.
    Rambo; “I always believed that the mind was the best weapon.”
    Typical Fed Psych Profile:

    1 Very suspicious and distrustful of anyone not of their own culture.
    2 Too self-assured and self confident, to need, or ask for help is perceived as a sign of weakness, value self-reliance seeking help for any issue.
    3 May possess above-average intelligence.
    4 Perfectionist?; overly judgmental of self &others, takes great pride in profession not wanting to bring any shame on it or themselves
    5 Over identify with job resulting in isolating with others in culture which leads to alienation; great deal of personal identify tied up in professional identity; it’s much more that just a job, it’s a way of life.
    6 Crisis oriented; seek & thrive on excitement & stress; always want to be “in the thick of things”
    7 Defensive & trend to overreact when challenged; take charge personality
    8 Difficulty dealing with feelings valuing cognitive abilities; repression of feelings is a self-protecting mechanism; projection & rationalization used to cope with distress which tends to encourages maladaptive behaviors often resulting in maladies such as depression, despair, loneliness, & cynicism.
    9 Resistant to surrendering self-control; “powerlessness” is considered a sign of weakness
    10 Tendency to equate physical health with mental health; physical and mental illness are perceived, sometimes rightly so, as career damaging or ending; treatment for any affliction, especially perceived “mental illnesses” is viewed unsafe and career damaging; very stigma oriented.
    11 Being deceptive and manipulative is a valuable trait; Feds are trained in techniques of dealing with deceptive persons and in interviewing skills
    12 Resistant to change; tend to view things in black or white, right or wrong.
    Information taken from articles by
    Travis K. Sorrows and J. Edgar Hoover

  • Anonymous

    Why don’t they just load us all in the railroad cars now, and ship us to their private auchewitzes?

  • Anonymous

    Thus, the wikileaks “phenomenon” is the rub on them. For the first time, an end run around the power grid, so to speak.

  • Anonymous

    They will keep extending it until we are used to it, then they will permanently take our civil liberties for good.
    I’m speaking about the Patriot Act.

    When in the hell are the people going to take to the streets? What is wrong with the Democrats who voted
    for it? Is it the big contracts for the spy agencies? Or, is it to protect the inner circle in Washington? Why didn’t the Democrats vote it down when in charge? We are being occupied. It is an occupation to suck every last dime from those who can and still have to pay taxes in this miserable country, and then to take away what we have worked for all our lives. And, when that is gone they will take until we are dead, and they will take that too.

    So, while my local Democrats toil and worry about mosques being built in my county, the rest of us get robbed at gun point, only those guns are held in metaphor while the nearest privatized prison system awaits for anyone who disagrees with the new order.

    This is a sick and disgusting country. It is not the “land of the free, or home of the brave”.

  • realnewz

    I get the feeling you wouldnt think anybody is right for a write-in candidate?
    Every vote counts and people vote to make a statement all the time. That is kinda the point of voting.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2NPRPRYZC3RF424Y4G4NKPY3FM Anya O

    So our “liberal” president allows this law to continue, promises more transparency, and the reasoning for the law is kept secret? Why? Because eavesdropping on calls made internationally MIGHT prevent POSSIBLE attacks of terrorism in which the caller MIGHT be partaking in? We already know the FBI has been abusing this power, but this is to keep us all safer? Just make sure you don’t tell your Aunt Florence who lives in Italy that the knitted sweater she sent was “the bomb”!

    How much longer are we supposed to put up with…hold on, its my turn for scrabble on my iPhone.

  • Guest

    That is one goal of voting. Another is get the person elected who most represents your views. We saw this in the 2000 election. Nader ran and got a small percentage, enough of a percentage to deny Gore the presidency. Yes, Nader and his followers made a statement to the Democrats and the Republicans; but at what price? A Bush presidency that stood for so much that I was against. It was the voting equivalent of “cutting off you nose to spite your face”.

    Let’s take the last election as an example. Suopose on the night before the election the polls said McCain – 65%, Obama – 15%, Kuchinich (as a write -in possibility) – 5%, others – 15%. In that case, Obama would have been unelectable and I would have gone for writing in Kuchinich even though I thought he was going to lose also.

    I do think it is better to vote for someone who is electable first, even though they may not completely represent your views. If it is unlikely that your first (perhaps compromise) candidate is going to be elected, then make a statement.

  • Guest

    I agree. Someone should run who will question Obama’s continued abuse of domestic civils rights, ask him why Guantanamo is still open, challenge him on the Patriot Act and skewer him on wiretapping. Unfortunately, I don’t see anyone who will fill that role except Kuchinich. Kuchinich has already said he will not run. Who else do you have in mind?

  • Elim

    I agree, but not wholeheartedly. The teaparty is the only viable third party there is to knock some of these fuckers for a loop. That’s all they’re good for right now.

  • Elim

    It’s been that way for the last 50 years, at least.

  • Elim

    Why is Kucinich unelectable?

  • Elim

    Grayson.

  • Elim

    Who do use for phone and internet?

  • Elim

    Dude, have you noticed that the GOP has been stabbing us in the back from 2001 until 2008? That’s why things are such a wreck now. The Dems have stabbed us in the back by not correcting those injustices and mistakes, and by not holding anyone accountable who was responsible for that.

  • Elim

    That would be a real wake-up call for the Dem party, if hundreds of thousands of people, within about 30 days or so, switched their party affiliations from Dem to something else. I went Indie in 2004.

  • Elim

    Just make sure you don’t use any terrorist related words while playing.

  • Elim

    Shit, I knew that as soon as he announced his candidacy. But no one could see past his skin, the bigots or the PC cheerleaders.

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