A jovial new podcast in which California Governor Gavin Newsom pals around with provocative right-wing guests has infuriated the Democratic Party, as its leaders clash over the best way to fight back against Donald Trump.
In an apparent bid to court centrist US voters, Newsom -- a presumed frontrunner for the Democratic leadership -- this month launched "This is Gavin Newsom," pledging to talk to "those I fundamentally disagree with."
Across the first few episodes, Newsom banters with Republicans like activist Charlie Kirk and firebrand Steve Bannon, agreeing with many of their views, like barring trans women from female sports.
Many Democrats on the party's left flank have blasted Newsom for providing a platform to views and figures they consider to be taboo, and failing to push back on his guests' inflammatory statements and lies.
But some Republicans like Anne Dunsmore, a veteran fundraiser who has spearheaded efforts to recall Newsom in California, say the strategy is smarter than it appears.
"He's doing what everybody else ought to be doing," she said. "The guy is not stupid."
This week, conservative host Megyn Kelly cautioned against Republicans going on the podcast, warning it may help a potential future Democratic nominee build "an audience that's large and can appeal to both sides."
Right-wing voices dominate the United States' most popular podcasts, which were widely credited with aiding Trump's victory last November. Democrats have struggled to gain a foothold in the booming medium.
"I don't like to see it, because my own feeling is this guy's in training for 2028... we should not be helping him," said Kelly, on her podcast.
According to Dunsmore, Newsom could even be out-flanking the Republicans' own strategy.
Right-wing podcasts rarely reach across the aisle to feature Democratic guests, and are often "talking to themselves," she noted.
By speaking to the other side rather than fellow Democrats, Newsom is distancing himself from his party's unpopular positions on issues like trans athletes, said Dunsmore.
"This podcast is Gavin Newsom mitigating the extremism he's been required to cater to for the last 10 years," she said.
"And he's killing two birds with one stone -- he doesn't have to deal with his own party crazies."
For some Democrats, this strategy is dangerous and counter-productive.
Newsom notably twice failed to correct Bannon's claims that Donald Trump won the 2020 election.
Kentucky governor Andy Beshear, also widely expected to seek the Democratic nomination, this week hit out at Newsom.
"Steve Bannon espouses hatred and anger, and even at some points violence, and I don't think we should give him oxygen on any platform, ever, anywhere," he said.
Newsom's most recent episode featured Democrat Tim Walz. But he has hinted that Tucker Carlson, another Trump favorite, could be a future guest.
Sacramento-based strategist Steven Maviglio said Newsom's strategy of speaking with "right-wing extremists" is "not helpful to the Democratic cause."
But he also questioned whether it even benefits Newsom, who would first need to win the Democratic nomination in order to run for the White House.
"To be president in 2028 you're going to have to appeal to Democratic primary voters first," said Maviglio.
"Frankly he has a day job -- he's governor of a state with lots of challenges that he's been not fulfilling... I think he'd be better served doing his job."
Newsom has a history of making bold overtures beyond his own liberal state.
In recent years, he has run pro-choice abortion ads in Alabama, debated Florida governor Ron DeSantis on Fox News, and campaigned for then-president Joe Biden in red states like Idaho.
Capturing national media attention may be the main goal, said Steve Caplan, who teaches communications and marketing at University of Southern California.
"Is it what Democrats want in this moment, to be breaking bread with the Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon to the world? The answer is no," Caplan said.
"Apparently he's comfortable with going in a different direction. Will it pay off? It's a long time between now and the election."
Until then, even Newsom's right-wing guests seem perplexed by their host's all-out courtship.
"It was like almost nauseatingly positive, right?" Kirk later reflected. "In that way it was very difficult to navigate."