'Out of your mind': CNN guests clash as ex-anchor demands 'fact-based debate'

A vocal proponent of President-elect Donald Trump sparred with a former CNN anchor on Thursday night as he vehemently pushed back on her assertion that America is poorer and less safe than it was under the Trump administration.

Madison Gesiotto, a frequent guest on CNN's "NewsNight" and former national spokesperson for the Republican National Committee, was asked by host Abby Philip if the MAGA leader is taking a page from adviser Steve Bannon's playbook — and "flooding the zone" with proactive Cabinet picks.

Gesiotto echoed similar statements from other Republicans in the days since the election that America voted to put Trump in charge. But as she insisted that America "is not richer" than it was in 2019 and isn't safer, fellow panelist John Avlon butted in.

"We are," he pushed back. "We are."

"No," she insisted. "No, we're not.

ALSO READ: Why Trump voters should be held accountable for their choice

"Let's have a fact-based debate," Avlon forcefully responded, raising his voice. "We're literally — crime is lower than it was when Trump was in office."

But Gesiotto doubled down and demanded he look at the statistics where authorities have stripped numbers out.

"Like manipulating the statistics," she said, as he visibly scoffed at her statement. "We've talked about it many times."

She insisted that places such as New York City are less safe than they were in 2019 — and said if he believes otherwise, "You're out of your mind."

Avlon replied that while he's in favor of quality-of-life policing and can "talk about broken windows theory all night long" — he reiterated that they need to have a "fact-based debate" on her assertions.

"And you just admitted that you're not," he shot back.

As Gesiotto repeated that people are poorer and less safe, Avlon again replied, "No."

The FBI and the Bureau of Justice Statistics are the two main sources of government crime statistics. Crime rates have fallen sharply over the last three decades, though that decline hasn’t always been steady, according to Pew Research Center.

"There have been notable increases in certain kinds of crime in some years, including recently," the organization wrote in April.

"In 2020, for example, the U.S. murder rate saw its largest single-year increase on record – and by 2022, it remained considerably higher than before the coronavirus pandemic. Preliminary data for 2023, however, suggests that the murder rate fell substantially last year," the report added.

Watch the tense exchange below or at this link.