The circus-like atmosphere surrounding Donald Trump has distracted from the gravity of the moment, but for those who work in the Manhattan Criminal Court, today is both business as usual and business most unusual.
And it’s straight-up surreal to New York public defender Thalia Karny, who is intimately familiar with the spot where Trump will today stand before the law.
“I’ve sat in that same courtroom. My client sat in the same seat that Trump will be sitting in. It’s just very hard to envision a former president sitting in the same chair, but he should,” Karny — who boasts 25 years of legal experience — tells Raw Story. “If he's been indicted he should be in that same chair. Right? Why should he be treated any differently than anyone else?”
The Manhattan courthouse is no stranger to fallen icons — Harvey Weinstein and Cuba Gooding Jr., of late — overwhelming security, or a piranha-like press corps.
After attending New York University, Karny moved to Los Angeles to dabble in the entertainment industry before coming back to New York. The public servant shared with Raw Story that this week’s Trump reality show meets court TV — an American drama airing live across the globe — is a historical spectacle dwarfing all other storied spectacles the Big Apple’s criminal justice system and entertainment-fueled media have ever known.
The below interview with Thalia Karny of New York County Defender Services has been lightly edited for length and clarity.
Raw Story: Have you ever seen anything like this?
Thalia Karny: [Paul] Manafort came through our courthouse, [Steve] Bannon came through our courthouse, and then [Allen] Weisselberg. So Trump is, like, the big kahuna now, he’s coming through, too. It’s just bizarre now.
RS:Did you just expect it?
TK: No. No, I never thought — I did not think that. I didn’t think he’d get indicted. I didn’t think this would happen. It's just bizarre. Really bizarre.
RS: How so?
TK: He's going to be sitting in the same place where my clients sat, and I represent indigent defendants — people that are charged with crimes who are too poor to afford lawyers. And that's kind of the beauty of this system, he’s going to sit in the same chair, in the same courtroom, presumably. I can't tell you 100 percent, but that's what I've heard.
RS: That’s so fascinating, because on Fox News and all that, it’s a different story … Ben Shapiro tweeted out something like, “Oh, this is so precedent setting.” You’re saying, “No, this is just America’s criminal justice system”?
Donald Trump will turn himself in for arraignment on Tuesday. At that very moment, America will find herself in a brave new world -- a world in which the consequences of political defeat may mean legal prosecution.
— Ben Shapiro (@benshapiro) April 3, 2023
TK: He’s a guy who was indicted, and because he was indicted, he has to be arraigned. That’s the way it works. What’s mind bending is that a former president is being indicted. It's not where he's going to be or that he's going to be arraigned. It is what it is. He was indicted by a grand jury.
RS: What are you expecting?
TK: In my experience, it's gonna be a very brief appearance. They go before the court and they're advised of the charges. They're entitled to their lawyer being present. They plead guilty or not guilty. But this is such an abnormal circumstance. It's just so insane and unprecedented that it's really hard to even talk about it until it's done. Because, you know, I don't think anybody can really imagine the behavior of a former president being arraigned on an indictment in a state Supreme Court. It's just crazy.
RS:Wait, explain that to us on the levels that you're understanding it, because it's crazy to us, probably on the spectacle level and also a little bit the historical level, but it sounds like it's crazy to you on the legal level — or no?
TK: No. No, not really. It's not crazy on the legal level. It's crazy for the reasons you think it's crazy, because it's unprecedented and because of who Trump is. It was always going to be this type of circus, and this is so close to home. It's the courthouse that we're in every day and, for the most part, your garden variety people. Mostly, our clients are Black and brown and poor.
RS: How’s the staff handling the circus?
TK: People at the courthouse, the court officers, they look totally nonplussed by this. Everyone looks how they always look, no one’s like, "Oh my god" like this is like the biggest deal of the world.
RS: They’ve dealt with everything.
TK: Not with a president, because a president’s never been indicted.
RS: What’s the buzz around the court been this week?
TK: There's no shock value anymore — I'm shocked because I'm a little older — but when you see people walk by the reporters and everything, they don't even look at them. Every other week Law & Order is filming right in front of the courthouse. I think Lady Gaga was next to the federal courthouse a few weeks ago. People just don't even — they just walk on by and don’t care.
RS:If anything, the camera crews and news people, they’re in their way?
TK: Exactly. It's like, "What the hell are you doing here?" That's exactly the New York attitude.
RS: What's the worst case ever tried in this court?
TK: [Harvey] Weinstein. Two years ago. It was a circus, too. He was convicted in that courtroom.
RS:It will be so curious to compare the crowds for Weinstein and Trump …
TK: There will be no comparison. Oh my god, no comparison. This is much bigger.
RS:Wait. Why?
TK: Because Harvey Weinstein was a movie producer, and Trump was the leader of the free world.
RS: But this is America where most of us know about the presidency through movies!
TK: No, no, no. I personally don't see the comparison. Cuba Gooding Jr. also got adjudicated at [the New York County Criminal Court] a couple years ago. Yeah, the cameras were out there, but it's nothing like I've seen the last couple of days.
RS: Love that you, as a public defender in New York, are less cynical than I am, a jaded 17-year congressional correspondent.
TK: I've worked in Hollywood.