Former White House Counsel Kathryn Ruemmler, who served in President Barack Obama's administration, told MSNBC's Ari Melber on Monday evening that special counsel Robert Mueller's account of her successor under Trump, Don McGahn, is mind-boggling to her.
"I have run out of adjectives to describe what it must be like, and what it must have been like, for Don McGahn," Ruemmler told host Ari Melber, adding that previous presidents "understood the power and the authority and the responsibility that came with the office of the presidency. And President Trump seems not to understand that at all."
One of the most astonishing parts to Ruemmler was the fact that McGahn had to retain his own counsel to advise him whether following the president's orders could put him in jail.
"Did you ever get an order from President Obama and then have to consult your personal lawyer for your own criminal liability?" Melber asked her.
"Never," said Ruemmler. "Never."
"What does it tell you when we read those stories?" Melber pressed her.
"It's so difficult to express to people who don't have the experience in working at the White House or don't understand, you know, what it's like to work in government, how just so outside of the realm of not even normal but just barely acceptable," said Ruemmler. "I mean, it's just stranger than fiction is the only way I can describe it. It's just astonishing."