Former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade told MSNBC's Chris Matthews that Rudy Giuliani is nothing more than President Donald Trump's chairman of illicit activities.

Matthews began citing a Washington Post report where at least one U.S. official is blaming Giuliani for turning the Ukraine scandal into a larger issue.

“Rudy — he did all of this,” the official told The Post. “This sh*tshow that we’re in — it’s him injecting himself into the process.”

"Those officials in the State Department, for months knew there was something weird happening in our relationship with Ukraine," Matthews said. "It had to do with getting dirt, getting dirt on Hillary, especially on Joe Biden who at that time in the early parts of the summer really looked like a threat more than he does today in fact to this president. That’s what this is about."

The fact that Trump reaches for Giuliani is a "tell" according to McQuade.

"I think it suggests that President Trump himself knew that this was shady and not to be done through official channels," she said. "He didn't send a government official. He didn’t somebody who works in the White House, didn’t send anybody from the State Department. He sent his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. You know, this is -- in public corruption cases you refer to someone like that as the bagman, someone who goes and does the dirty work, has the negotiations, talks about the deal off-line."

She explained that if Giuliani was talking with the State Department about this "mission" then it's time to haul him along with the State Department officials in front of Congress to talk about the scope of the conspiracy.

Watch the exchange below: