On MSNBC's "AM Joy," former U.S. Attorney Barbara McQuade suggested that President Donald Trump's former lawyer Rudy Giuliani could be indicted today, based just on the facts that are already known about his involvement in the Ukraine plot.
"Barbara, given the fact that Giuliani's exploits in Ukraine are now the subject of the impeachment inquiry, if you're Donald Trump and you need to think about it, friends of Roger Stone are already saying, like Alex Jones, are saying please give him a pardon, who do you think would be more likely to hurt Donald Trump more?" asked anchor Joy Reid. "And would either of them maybe be able to get a pardon in order to try to get themselves out of trouble and keep Donald Trump out of trouble?"
"Yeah, you know, it's an interesting game to play about whether you're better off cooperating with prosecutors or cooperating with President Trump," said McQuade. "Of course, we don't know what kind of conversations they've already had with President Trump, and perhaps he's already promised pardons to either Giuliani or Stone. But in Giuliani's instance, I think he could be indicted today."
"You know, [fellow ex-U.S. Attorney] Joyce [Vance] and I drafted a mock indictment against Rudy Giuliani, and I think just based on what's already out there in the public domain, he could be indicted today for conspiracy to defraud the United States in the fair administration of elections, and conspiracy to commit bribery on the same matter that President Trump is under investigation for today," continued McQuade. "And in addition, he's now looking at potential charges based on his dealings with Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, related to their campaign finance violations already charged in New York."
"So, he is potentially in a heap of trouble," added McQuade. "And nobody knows better than he does how the cooperation game works. If you can provide information that leads to the conviction, or perhaps in this case, impeachment, of someone higher up in the criminal organization than you, then there is a lot of reward to be had for that. And so, Giuliani could be in a position to — you know, everyone's talking about Trump throwing Giuliani under the bus. Giuliani could be in position to throw Trump under the bus."