Ask Joshua Shanes if Donald Trump is anti-Semitic and you won’t receive a yes-or-no response from the national expert on anti-Semitism and modern Jewish politics.
But Shanes, director of the Arnold Center for Israel Studies at the College of Charleston, doesn’t mince words about what Trump has wrought in America for the past five years.
“The politics of Trumpism are fascist, and that is a danger whether Trump returns to power or not,” Shanes says. The parallels between what happened in Nazi Germany and the white nationalism mainstreamed by Trump are unmistakable, he adds.
Shanes says Trump’s impact in fostering extremism “grounded in racism and anti-Semitism” is not mitigated by having Jewish grandchildren of his own. Trump’s daughter Ivanka converted to Orthodox Judaism before marrying Jared Kushner in 2009.
And, says Shanes, the destruction of democratic institutions is as much a threat to Jews and other minorities as the rhetoric itself.
Here’s more from Shanes’ interview with Raw Story.
Q. How would you characterize the state of American anti-Semitism today in the context of U.S. history?
A. I think on the one hand, we are experiencing a level of anti-Semitism in rhetoric and in violence that certainly has never happened before in my lifetime. Synagogues all around the country have security now. When I was a kid, that’s something you’d only see in Europe. That’s a very serious thing. On the other hand, I don’t want to exaggerate it. I don’t want to pretend that as a white-presenting person, with all the privileges that come with that in our systemically racist society, that somehow Jews are uniquely vulnerable right now. I wouldn’t want to compare it with what African Americans have continued to face year after year. But it certainly has heightened in the past five years. The rise of white nationalism is certainly a piece of it and Jews are of course affected by that.
Q. You mentioned the past five years. How much does the recent rise of anti-Semitism have to do with Donald Trump? And do you think of him as anti-Semitic?
A. It’s helpful to avoid the game of saying ‘So and so is a racist or anti-Semite’ like it’s some sort of binary thing. I don’t know what’s in someone’s heart. Donald Trump certainly seems to have a racist worldview and he certainly uses racism for political gain and has mainstreamed white nationalism -- grounded in racism and anti-Semitism -- in a way that would have been unimaginable a generation ago. Trump, as you know, has a Jewish daughter and Jewish grandchildren, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t promote anti-Semitism.
Q. Isn’t their historical precedent for it not mattering whether someone has Jewish relatives?
A. I think in general it doesn’t matter at all. It’s not relevant. There those who say, ‘how can you call him an anti-Semite, he has a Jewish daughter?” Then don’t call him an anti-Semite if you don’t want to. I’m not calling him that. But he is promoting anti-Semitic ideas and an anti-Semitic worldview and that has very dangerous consequences.
Q. The January 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol was one of those consequences. How much should it resonate with Jews in particular?
A. You certainly saw Nazis there with Camp Auschwitz signs. There’s a very real threat in the connection between anti-Semitism and white nationalism. When white nationalism is on the ascendancy, when it is empowered, when it is represented in government, Jews are endangered. Not just Jews, of course. But when we see how white nationalism was advanced on January 6 or in Charlottesville or in other times and places, that reminder is very constructive as to what we need to be doing.
Q. How do you see the rise of anti-Semitism playing out?
A. The most important central myth of modern anti-Semitism is the notion of a global Jewish conspiracy led by some bogeyman, usually a very famous rich Jew. A hundred years ago it was the Rothschild family, and today it tends to be George Soros. There’s this idea of a collective danger led by some big bad Jew who is undermining national sovereignty. The words like globalist and globalism are part of that trope. This is exceedingly dangerous, because if you imagine all the Jews as being sort of a collective, now you understand why Robert Bowers walked into a synagogue in Pittsburgh and murdered all those people. He said so: ‘Because we have to stop the dilution of the white majority in America and the Jews collectively are the ones doing that. When we’re talking about someone like Trump or those who follow him-- and you must include the ones stoking it in the media -- they are following the same playbook. It is very, very dangerous.
Q. Dangerous enough to compare it to another time in Germany?
A. What makes the Jews and other minorities vulnerable is not just the rhetoric against them that stokes violence. That’s certainly part of it. But it’s also the weakening of our Democratic institutions. When I talk to my students about the Holocaust, I certainly talk about the acceptability of anti-Semitism in popular discourse. In Germany and elsewhere in Europe, people were either excited about the anti-Semitic ideas or at least they thought they were acceptable. But the other piece of the puzzle is separate from the Jews per se, is the collapse of democracy. That leaves Jews and other minorities very vulnerable. It’s that dual aspect. With Trump and others like Mitch McConnell, the undermining of our democratic institutions plays an equally important role.
Q. So if the past is prologue?
A. Historians aren’t great at predicting the future. I asked my students when Trump was in power -- and he may very well return to power, or someone like him -- to think about where fascists attacked before. They attacked those things that would undermine their ability to seize power. So, they attacked the free press and even before they were able to shut it down entirely, they had an expression called Lügenpresse -- and it means ‘the lying press’ -- and they repeated that mantra over and over again in the hopes that those who listened to them would no longer listen the press, which was exposing them and their lies.
Q. That rings a bell.
A. Of course, that’s the same thing the use of “fake news” has been doing in America for the past several years. But they also attacked and tried to undermine the labor unions because they could organize against them. And they attacked the courts. When the courts and the press are fallen, when those basic democratic institutions are gone, minorities become vulnerable. They become vulnerable to state violence, to stochastic violence. When you have all this rhetoric about how our white majority is under attack and Soros -- which means the Jews -- are coming to bring in these bad immigrants you are going to stoke violence against synagogues and against random people of the street. I don’t think the Jews are the primary target in America. I’ve never thought that. In the short run, though, I’m concerned about state violence against minorities and Jews that are certainly part of it.
Q. What should people watch out for if Trump or someone like him would take power again?
A. I fear an intensification of the things we're already seeing happening right the suppression of teaching about anti-Semitism in the Holocaust and racism and race. I fear suppression, an intensification of authoritarian rules and oppression of the media. I fear, enhanced police violence against innocent people or any people I should say, for that matter. I fear, with the courts as they are, that there’s going to be a regression to an earlier time in American history when things were bad for a lot of people.
Q. Or maybe even worse?
A. Scholars of fascism -- pretty much a consensus -- have said for years that Trumpism is a fascist movement. That doesn't mean that we were a fascist country when he was in power or that it will become one automatically if he returns to power. I’ve often said that the reason I teach the Holocaust and fascism is because by the time you get to 1941 or 42 it's too late. You must intervene in ‘31 or ‘33, or maybe ‘35, but by ‘41-’42, it's too late. Not every ‘33 ends up in a ‘41 if you get my drift. Not every authoritarian move ends up in a Holocaust, but some of them do. And are you going to wait to find out? Because it might be too late at that point.
Q. So what year are we in now?
A. I don’t know. But the politics of Trumpism are fascist, and that's a danger whether Trump returns to power or not.
