Pence lost — no matter how he tries to spin it: legal expert
Donald Trump, Mike POencxe (Photo via AFP)

Despite former Vice President Mike Pence's repeated claims that the Speech and Debate Clause of the Constitution prevents him from giving information to Justice Department special counsel Jack Smith in the January 6 investigation, a federal judge ruled this week that Pence must give testimony.

Pence has sought to downplay this as a legal loss. But, former Manhattan prosecutor Karen Friedman Agnifilo to CNN's Pamela Brown on Tuesday night, that's exactly what it is.

"Do you see it that way? A win for Pence?" asked Brown.

"No," said Agnifilo. "He's going to have to testify before the grand jury. He's going to have to provide his testimony about the conversations leading up to January 6th. What the judge ruled today — what we're hearing, because it's under seal — was that he, it's only limited — the Speech and Debate Clause, which is usually only limited to representatives or senators, because he has the role of being President of the Senate, in that limited role when he was certifying the election, he doesn't have to testify about that."

However, Agnifilo continued, "All of that January 6th is on video. So really, what's important and what they need in the grand jury, are what were the conversations before that, and the pressure campaign that Donald Trump put on Mike Pence to not certify the election and potentially provide evidence that would show Donald Trump was committing a crime."

"I think he might want to say this is a victory because it did say that the vice president, which is normally in the — gets the executive privilege, which he also doesn't get in this case, that was also ruled, does not apply. But this is the first time anyone's ruled that the Speech and Debate Clause does apply."

Watch the segment below or at this link.

Karen Friedman Agnifilo says new ruling is a loss for Pence